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Old March 26, 2013, 08:53 PM   #76
TunnelRat
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Quote:
In my penetration tests HPs have done poorly.
What do these tests consist of and what ammunition have you tested?

Quote:
However, should the robber be wearing a vest and carrying a long gun, solid (penetrating) bullets are the most effective defense.
Besides the 7.62x25 you mentioned, standard pistol calibers are not penetrating a class III vest, fmj or jhp.

Quote:
As for collateral damage, if the shot isn't there, I don't take it.
That's not my point. A shot may very well present itself and you take it and you end up with over penetration and the bullet continues and hurts a bystander. Do jhps solve this entirely? No, I won't pretend they do. But they certainly help.
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Old March 26, 2013, 09:06 PM   #77
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If you get robbed you might lose your guns and your money. A model 60 in 357mag would be my choice. If I have that gun in a jacket pocket with my hand on it I am as ready as its possible to be.
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Old March 26, 2013, 09:43 PM   #78
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To the OP: I'm no ballistics expert by any means, but I think you'll be fine.
Me personally, I'd just carry two 9mm Glocks and roll with it!
Take care, and be safe out there!
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Old March 26, 2013, 09:49 PM   #79
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Ahoy TunnelRat,

Over the years, have tested almost everything from 22 to 45, thru a variety of media.

The 7.62x25 is carried to meet the threat of a vest. The 44 Magnum is also effective to a point, depending on powder load and bullet selection.

"A shot may very well present itself and you take it and you end up with over penetration and the bullet continues and hurts a bystander. " [TunnelRat]

If there are innocents present I do not draw my gun, unless the perp starts killing.

Prerequisite is to shoot straight, surgically, ensuring that only the perp is hit.

Sometimes life can be hard. Very hard.
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Old March 26, 2013, 10:11 PM   #80
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Ditch the idea of getting another gun, you have no need for one. If you are that worried, your money would be best spent on a concealed vest. They are easily worn underneath your shirt and are not very noticeable at all.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:42 PM   #81
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Best caliber for situation described.

Those recommending vests have clearly never been shot with a vest on. It may save your life if it hits your vest. You're still going down.

In his situation, they may finish him off since her engaged. Regardless he's getting shot. It isn't the end all piece of advice for the OP.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:52 PM   #82
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I admit that I wonder how somebody wearing a vest could live through being shot up close with a S&W .500 Magnum.
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Old March 27, 2013, 12:26 AM   #83
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Re: Best caliber for situation described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
Those recommending vests have clearly never been shot with a vest on. It may save your life if it hits your vest. You're still going down.

In his situation, they may finish him off since her engaged. Regardless he's getting shot. It isn't the end all piece of advice for the OP.
But a vest will do more to protect an unprotected body than switching from a .45 caliber handgun to a .357 sig...
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Old March 27, 2013, 04:38 AM   #84
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I admit that I wonder how somebody wearing a vest could live through being shot up close with a S&W .500 Magnum.
It has been talked about for years, blunt trauma never killed any body, cracked the odd rib though.
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Old March 27, 2013, 09:46 AM   #85
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Again...no one has been shot while wearing body armor. You can't breathe, speak, think, nothing...Feels like you've been hit by a car. My buddy was hit.

Quote:
But a vest will do more to protect an unprotected body than switching from a .45 caliber handgun to a .357 sig...
Not being there when it goes down is better than getting shot with or without a vest.

So many repercussions when using your gun self defense..doubt anyone has $250,000+ laying around for lawyers. He knows what he has to do. A lot of good advice and a lot of not so good advice on here for him.

Best advice is to not be there when it happens. Period. Watch your 6. Use that gun as a last resort.


If walking a couple blocks around a bad neighborhood ensures you a safer route to your destination, why walk through the bad neighborhood feeling "better" about what your packing on you? Whether it's guns, knifes, body armor..doesn't matter.

It'll never go down like how you picture it in your mind.

Avoid it.
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:14 AM   #86
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" blunt trauma never killed any body" I find this interesting. I used to box with a guy who hit hard enough that even wearing 16 ounce gloves he could hit a liver shot which at a minimum would cause his opponent to freeze (incapable of movement except to perhaps squeak) or crumple to the floor. Better yet was the co-ed who jumped from twenty or so storeys to her death on the gravel below during my junior year of college. Blunt trauma maximized. Now taking some info from the Internet:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500_S%26W_Magnum Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
300 gr (19 g) FTX LEVERevolution 2,075 ft/s (632 m/s) 2,868 ft·lbf (3,888 J)
350 gr (23 g) JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) 1,975 ft/s (602 m/s) 3,031 ft·lbf (4,109 J)
400 gr (26 g) JHP (Platinum Tip Winchester) 1,800 ft/s (550 m/s) 2,877 ft·lbf (3,901 J)
500 gr (32 g) JSP/Hard Cast 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) 2,500 ft·lbf (3,400 J)
Test barrel length: 8.375 in
Source(s): Hornady (300gr),[1] Cor-Bon (350gr),[2] Winchester (400gr),[3] Double Tap,[4] and BALLISTIC SUPPLY[5]
Once again, I wonder how somebody wear a vest could live through being shot up close with a S&W .500 Magnum.
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Old March 27, 2013, 07:29 PM   #87
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Shoot them in the head and it won't matter what calibre you choose.

I know the .45 against 9mm debate will go on until the sun stops turning; but the 9mm works for me. If I was about to be robbed and I could see if developing, or even if I was reacting to someone, I'd put two in their head.

Neat, professional, terminal...
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Old March 28, 2013, 12:50 AM   #88
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Curly.

I was making a point that was brought out when Kevlar vests first came to be.

"Shot in the chest, wearing the vest, blunt trauma would kill you" it never did, not that I know of.

Someone hit with a hammer, in the head, could have the death Certificate state.

Cause of death, Blunt Trauma.

But being shot with a pistol round, yes, sitting on the ground, mouth open like a fish out of water, gasping for breath, yes it has happened. Cracked ribs? That too.

Back in 1968, visiting Family in England, I just so happened to get dragged in to a fight (my Ex Wife tended to speak without thinking sometimes) the opening blow was struck by me! The Marquise of Queensberry is dead! A flat footed kick to the chest, caused three broken ribs!

I suppose that would/could, be classified as blunt trauma.
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Old March 29, 2013, 10:03 AM   #89
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serbu

if it has to be concealed look into a serbu super shorty dissappears under a coat in a shoulder rig and if three 3" buckshot loads wont change their minds i don't know what will
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Old April 6, 2013, 07:39 PM   #90
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I know it has been a while, but I waited for the next gun show to roll around to make my purchase. After a test shoot and following up on many of your suggestions, I decided upon the .357 sig G31 (although still undecided about the ammo). I chose the .357 sig because I had better followup shots.

Appreciate most of the advice guys, both the caliber related and institutional. I wish I had the time to respond to each suggestion. I will however mention that in terms of preparation, I realize the issue at hand is for the most part not worth noting. Drilling for speed/accuracy, awareness, remaining inconspicuous, avoidance, and body-armor/gear were all areas of practice and preparation that came first.
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Old April 6, 2013, 08:40 PM   #91
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Big555, the load with the best reputation is the 125 gr. Gold Dot. Not sure what the DPS uses, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Gold Dot. From talking to some troopers, I know they are very satisfied with the .357 SIG. You can go here: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel...ex.htm#.357SIG to see what passed the FBI testing. The Gold Dot is one recommendation with the other being for Federal Tactical and HST loads. If Remington has included their new bonded bullet, the Golden Saber should be added to the list soon. Just be aware that some IWBA types have a bias against the round because they have no explanation for the effectiveness record of the 125 gr. JHPs in .357 Magnum which the SIG round emulates pretty well. You might also want to read some of Massod Ayoobs work where he gets into placing the second shot to the pelvic area under the vest when a perp fails to drop after the first round.
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Old April 6, 2013, 08:59 PM   #92
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I know how you feel. I ran my own company with a friend for years and it wasn't uncommon for one of us to be carrying a few grand in cash on us from the job. And the places we worked weren't exactly safe. A lot of em got robbed pretty often. I always carried a 19+1 9mm on my hip while my partner carried a 17+1 9mm with him. Then in the truck we had a 38 in the middle console either of us could get to as well as a 12 gauge right behind me mounted on the side window that I could get to and then a .223 Saiga that kent could get to. Needless to say we were making damn sure we had more ammo than the other guy. Running our own business meant that if we lost 20 grand if someone stole 20 grand then we would still have to supply our clients what they paid for which meant that 20 grand came outta our pockets so yea we took it seriously. I always wanted to get either a 460 Rowland or a 7 shot 357 mag. Both of which could be used to punch through a car door or window if necessary and I'd bet able to go through a windshield. I had planned to get a dash mounted holster for it and it would necer leave the vehicle. If you can get a partner to work with you. Throw a long gun in the vehicle somewhere and be smart. Also just practice ur ass off. I was at the range every weekend and in my backyard every few days. Also u may wanna consider beefing ur vehicle up (I'm a total gear head). We drove a jacked up bronco and threw a 351 Cleveland in there. That way we always had the option to run (well run everything over) in order to get away and avoid having to using firearms.

Last edited by Haz251; April 6, 2013 at 09:06 PM.
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Old April 8, 2013, 01:39 PM   #93
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57K, I really liked that link the first time around. Very informative and interesting. I think most people focus too much on the firearm itself and generally disregard learning about the ammo.
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Old April 8, 2013, 01:46 PM   #94
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.357SIG and .40S&W wear out guns faster. That's matter of fact.

To become proficient with your gun/tool, you must train, to train with a gun/tool you need ammo, to be able to afford to train with an expensive caliber you need a lot of ammo and a lot of money, to be able to do this with the .357SIG which is more scarce than .40S&W..which are both snappy rounds. You'll need extra practice to tame the round. Sorry for the run on sentence. These are all matter of fact.

Why reach for something harder when the reward and end goal is the same as lets say, a 9mm?

Which is easier to tame and cheaper to shoot.


So, easier worn out gun. More money on bullets. More time searching for bullets. More training trying to tame a round when an easier way is right there.

I just don't see it....

Just my $0.02

Well, $-0.02 after Obamacare.
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Old April 20, 2013, 11:46 PM   #95
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Quote:
.357SIG and .40S&W wear out guns faster. That's matter of fact.

To become proficient with your gun/tool, you must train, to train with a gun/tool you need ammo, to be able to afford to train with an expensive caliber you need a lot of ammo and a lot of money, to be able to do this with the .357SIG which is more scarce than .40S&W..which are both snappy rounds. You'll need extra practice to tame the round. Sorry for the run on sentence. These are all matter of fact.

Why reach for something harder when the reward and end goal is the same as lets say, a 9mm?

Which is easier to tame and cheaper to shoot.


So, easier worn out gun. More money on bullets. More time searching for bullets. More training trying to tame a round when an easier way is right there.

I just don't see it....

Just my $0.02

Well, $-0.02 after Obamacare.
All good points, but... I'm sure you are right that some calibers cause greater wear on a pistol; however, as a civilian, I'm not worried about wearing out my Glocks/Sigs/HKs in any caliber. As for taming the round, I handle my .357 mag just fine and have never found in hard to control. The ammo is harder to find and more expensive but can be found and at affordable prices.

Last edited by Big555; April 21, 2013 at 07:47 PM.
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Old April 21, 2013, 05:54 AM   #96
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Re: Best caliber for situation described.

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Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
I would seriously consider an armored truck service. Apart from that I would do the following...

Two pistols.
Multiple Interchangeable Mags
Shotgun in vehicle.
Different routes
Different branch of the same bank
Maybe even accounts at different banks

As for caliber I would say 9 mm for the best capacity.

You should also learn to drive defensively. Don't allow yourself to get boxed in. Driving away from a gun fight beats attempting to win one.
This.....your main weapon and the backup gun should use the same mags....Glock .40's or 9's
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