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Old March 25, 2013, 03:28 PM   #1
KC Rob
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When does an AR buffer tube count as a stock?

I have a pistol carbine kit, converts a 1911 into a carbine. The body of the kit accepts AR buffer tubes so that you can add a stock if you we're going to go the rifle or SBR route, which I am not. I do want to add a single point sling attachment which would require a buffer tube to add it at the rear of the carbine. I know that AR pistols have a buffer tube, but that is integral to the function of the gun, it is not needed for the function of my carbine, it would purely be for a sling attachment point. Anyone know if this is allowed or if I would be in some kind of NFA violation?
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Old March 25, 2013, 03:36 PM   #2
S_Constitutionist
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I do not know the answer to your question. I am simply posting to advise you to either contact the ATF directly, your AG, or a competent attorney.

IANAL, but I would not trust the advice of strangers on the internet for something that could land you in serious trouble. "So-in-so in TFL told me it was alright" wont be a winning defense.
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Old March 25, 2013, 04:54 PM   #3
tgreening
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You can use a kit that will convert your 1911 into a carbine. As long as your kit includes a barrel at least 16" in length you will be fine, and can add any stock you desire.

If your kit includes a barrel less than 16", and you put a stock on it, you've created an NFA regulated sbr.


I'm a little unclear what you're doing. If you are creating a carbine, non-NFA, you can put anything on there and don't need to worry what kind of buffer tube.


If you're wanting to put a longer, but less than 16" barrel on your pistol, you're not creating a carbine, you're just making a long barreled pistol and the type of buffer tube you stick on there could indeed matter.
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Old March 25, 2013, 05:43 PM   #4
Technosavant
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Just to make sure I understand: you have a 1911 carbine kit you plan to use for attachment of a sling, but do not plan to add an actual buttstock (which would make the 1911 a NFA regulated SBR). Correct?

Use an AR pistol buffer tube. It's a simple tube with no attachment point for a buttstock.

I'd personally not use a regular buffer tube with an attachment point for a stock; that might get one into trouble. But there's perfectly legal non-NFA AR pistols with short barrels utilizing a pistol type buffer tube.

Something along the lines of this.
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Old March 25, 2013, 09:47 PM   #5
KC Rob
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Sorry, I wasn't real clear about what I've got in my original post. I have the Hera Arms CPE kit.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...11-carbine-kit

I want to keep it configured as a pistol, no 16 inch barrel, no vertical front grip and no stock, but I want to add a single point sling attachment and would need an AR buffer tube for that, just want to make sure a buffer tube won't count as a stock.
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Last edited by KC Rob; March 25, 2013 at 09:57 PM.
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Old March 26, 2013, 09:42 AM   #6
Technosavant
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OK, seeing pics of the kit, I'd stick with my recommendation- use an AR-15 pistol buffer tube. That way you definitely don't get hit with the ATF's lovely idea of constructive possession (if you have the parts to put one together, then they maintain that you have one).

Or, if you're trying to use parts just laying around, you could just take a hack saw to the buffer tube somewhere behind the threads but before the stock attachment. Then just clean up the cut... you have enough room to attach the receiver endplate (with the sling attachment) and tighten up the castle nut but it isn't sticking anything so far out the back that it gets in your way.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:47 AM   #7
RickB
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I've shot 9mm and .223 AR "pistols", both of which had buffer tubes. I have also seen AR pistols without a buffer tube. I agree that you should seek an info source more authoritative than an internet forum, but since pistols with and without tubes are both legal, I don't know why it would be illegal to add a tube to a gun that didn't originally have one?
I saw a pic of a gun with a sling swivel mounted on the head of the forward assist. Google "OA-93", and you'll find a variety of configurations.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:36 PM   #8
Nullcone
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Are you talking about something like this:

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html

It's a "non pistol".
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Old March 26, 2013, 10:14 PM   #9
tgreening
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I've looked at that kit and I don't see where you need an ar buffer tube. The product lit says you can buy an adapter that allows you to attach an ar stock, but do you HAVE to attach the buffer tube? Plus the lit clearly shows a single point attached to the basic kit, without any ar adapter at all.
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Old March 26, 2013, 10:20 PM   #10
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Nullcone: That letter from the BATF is kind of interesting. They make mention of pistol "being designed to be fired with one hand" and then the addition of the foregrip changing it to something "not designed to be fired with one hand".

Seems to me it's still something designed to be fired with one hand, but it's convenient to use two hands as well. Shoot, a standard pistol, Glock, Sig, Colt, whatever, is designed to be fired with one hand, but go to any range and almost everyone uses a two handed grip as thee recommended way to shoot.

Any ar pistol I know of can be fired with a two handed grip as well, I don't see why the addition of a vertical foregrip to the rail makes any difference.

I know, it's the BATFs rules, but dang if that makes little to no sense. Of course I used to work with a paintball barrel manufacturer a long time ago, and one day the BATF showed up....
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Old March 27, 2013, 05:54 AM   #11
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Ignore - dumb question.
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Old March 27, 2013, 08:09 AM   #12
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Wow...Looked at the pictures and all I could think was "Hidden under all that stuff is probably a beautiful pistol".
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Old March 27, 2013, 10:12 PM   #13
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Imagine a world where receivers weren't registered as pistols or rifles...
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