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Old March 3, 2013, 01:17 PM   #76
basilisk4
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JohnKSa, thanks for the suggestions. But it seems to me that those options make the gun significantly more inaccessible versus having a loaded, but not chambered, pistol within arm's reach.
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Old March 3, 2013, 01:31 PM   #77
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Right. Maybe I was reading too much into your comments.

I was thinking that when you were in the car, you would have it on your person (you mentioned it was easy for you to "put it in a pants pocket or jacket pocket"), or otherwise under your immediate control.

Also, I assumed that you were talking about your daughter being left unattended in the car because it didn't make sense to worry about what she was doing while you were in the car since she would have to be in a car seat at that point.

So I wasn't really thinking about rapid accessibility as an issue when the gun was stored in the car since you weren't going to be around to access it anway.
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Old March 3, 2013, 01:38 PM   #78
basilisk4
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Ideally, I guess the best thing to do would be to keep it in a locked glovebox when the pistol is in my car and I'm not, and keep it chambered when I'm the only one in the car. But in those circumstances when I'm in the car with my daughter, I think I'll still keep it close to me and loaded but not chambered.
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Old March 3, 2013, 02:04 PM   #79
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I do not carry without 1 in the chamber. I know some do. I have put my hand on my gun 1 time in CCW. The Pit Bull was too close for me to have chambered a round. I would be dead. Fortunately, when he got to his electric fence border, he stopped!

I view CCW as something which when I draw that it will be to fire. If that dog would have taken 1 step on concrete, it would have been shot. I don't see how a scenario unfolds which instant defensive fire will not be impeded by not being able to fire as fast as possible.

Good luck. Learn how guns work in detail and you will be able to calm fears. That worked for me.
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Old March 3, 2013, 04:07 PM   #80
Gaerek
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The real issue here is, we simply do not know how we will be attacked. Anytime someone says, "Well, I just hope I'll be able to chamber a round before I need to fire," they're making an assumption as to what their particular situation will be. But, the same goes for the people who say that you won't have the ability to chamber a round before you need to fire. That's as much an assumption as the first statement.

If I wanted to make sure I was covered in any circumstance, I'd sling an AK over my shoulder and carry it everywhere. But that's not practical, so I make a compromise and carry a much smaller, less effective handgun. I make compromises when I carry that too. In an effort to aid in concealment and retention, I use a holster that takes a little bit of extra time to draw from than say an open top OWB holster. I'd love to carry two spare magazines, but I usually don't because I don't have a good, comfortable method of carrying two spares that are in a location that's available immediately, and in a place where they won't move around. So I compromise by carrying one spare.

Carrying a weapon is all about compromises. We compromise on weapon, clothing, holster, ammunition, just about everything. For me, the compromise of a little potential additional safety, by losing some ability to fight is simply not one I can make. You may decide the compromise is worth it. Just because your situation and comfort level allow you to carry Condition 1 does not mean that someone else's decision to carry Condition 3 is wrong. It's right for them. I personally would never recommend it, except in certain, very specific circumstances. However, if we're ever at the range together, and you tell me you carry Condition 3, I'll probably talk it over with you, and at least find out why you do. My father in law carries his 1911 Condition 3, and we have the conversation just about every month. But he's not comfortable with having a round in the chamber, under a raised hammer, and he understands what that means in certain circumstances, and he's accepted that.

Bottom line: I would recommend everyone consider carrying Condition 1. But if you are not comfortable, or for whatever reason you decide that you simply can't carry Condition 1, then don't!

Also, someone mentioned carrying a gun in Condition 2. I would only recommend this with a gun with a decocker, and in that case, (likely a DA/SA) it would really be considered Condition 1 (since a trigger press will fire a round, without manually cocking the hammer). If you've been doing this with a 1911, I really hope you've never had an ND...and I hope you never have one in the future. Lowering a hammer by thumbing it down and pulling the trigger on a live round is incredibly dangerous.
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Old March 3, 2013, 06:20 PM   #81
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basilisk4, I have a baby on the way (due late April) and so I have started worrying about some of the concerns you shared.

Of course, the first thing will be not to allow him access to any firearm, for the next few years. But I always worry about Murphy's Law, and how to layer defenses.

For that reason, I'm switching my primary carry from the 1911s and CZ75 variants I've normally preferred, to the HK P7 PSP.

Not that I have any intention of allowing a baby or toddler to gain access to my handgun, but just in case something should happen that would thwart my intentions (for instance, sustaining a head injury while carrying, when with the kid - as an extreme example) I think the squeeze-cocking grip will be both too large and too heavy for any small child to manipulate. The P7 can't be fired if the squeeze-cocker is not depressed.

That said, when my handguns are not on my person, they are in my gun safe, or in the console vault in my truck, and locked up.

Edit: For both basilisk4 and the OP, the other point is that if you can find a P7, you should be very comfortable with the safety of carrying it with a chambered round, but you should also like the trigger and the low bore axis.
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Old March 3, 2013, 10:09 PM   #82
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Thanks for the thought, MLeake. I may give one of those a look if I can afford it.
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Old March 4, 2013, 12:42 AM   #83
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Re: Re-thinking my carry/safety rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaerek View Post
!

Also, someone mentioned carrying a gun in Condition 2. I would only recommend this with a gun with a decocker, and in that case, (likely a DA/SA) it would really be considered Condition 1 (since a trigger press will fire a round, without manually cocking the hammer). If you've been doing this with a 1911, I really hope you've never had an ND...and I hope you never have one in the future. Lowering a hammer by thumbing it down and pulling the trigger on a live round is incredibly dangerous.
Its a CZ75 varient. I had an AD once in the desert, bullet hit about 5 ft in front of me. I was thumbing the hammer down as you said, and not totally paying attention. That was my wake up call. Since then, its always pinch the ring hammer between thumb and index and stay entirely focused until the hammer is all the way down.
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Old March 4, 2013, 09:59 AM   #84
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Since people have been mentioning they are newish parents, and worried about kids getting into their guns, let me just tell you what I've been doing. I have an almost 1 year old (will be 1 in April) and an almost 4 year old (will be 4 in May). My guns are always in one of two places...either on/with me, or in the safe. If I am doing something with my gun (dry fire, cleaning, etc) and something else takes my attention, the gun either goes right into my holster on my body, or back in the safe. Carrying Condition 3 does not make the gun any safer for kids, if you follow these simple rules.

My 4 year old knows where the safe is, but knows not to touch it. She also knows that if she wants to see a gun, all she has to do is ask. Even though she is very curious about many things, she see guns all the time, and she just isn't that curious about them.

I would never consider a gun in Condition 3 to be safe around a kid. Rule 1 makes this clear, "All guns are loaded, always." I know that everyone's situation is different, so this won't always work for everyone, but it's my belief that a combination of restricted access (except around Daddy), and education (Eddie Eagle's video is great, my daughter actually asks to watch it on occasion) will be your best defense against catastrophe with kids. Hoping that a gun at Condition 3 will keep them safe is dubious, at best.
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Old March 8, 2013, 06:28 PM   #85
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I won't try to persuade you to carry something you're not comfortable with but carrying a gun unchambered may well be as good as carrying nothing at all. It depends. If I am going to bother carrying I want something I can get into action as quickly as possible. Concealed carry already slows you down just a bit anyways.

I'm not sure I follow you when you say that if you see something sketchy happening you'll have time to chamber your pistol. When your gun comes out it will need to come out shooting most likely.

I feel great carrying a snub nose in a holster that covers the trigger. You may not be 100% comfortable with it but its 100% safe unless you do something really dumb.
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Old March 8, 2013, 06:38 PM   #86
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Does it have to be small ?? If not, take a look at the PX4 - Beretta and some of the Sigs and the CZ75.

The PX4 full size, compact and sub-compact all have decockers. Which will let down the hammer without firing it while engaging the safety. Sounds like this one may work to develop some reassurance it isn't going to shoot even if you have one chambered. The PX4 sub-compact , seems wide to some people, but it for some reason is very easy to conceal and carry.
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Old March 9, 2013, 02:42 PM   #87
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maybe it was mentioned already - but there is a very good chance you'll need one hand to fend off an attacker so how are you going to rack the slide? I always figured the first thing I would need to do is put myself in a position to be able to draw my weapon so that means using my off hand to block, push-off or something. If have time to get to the weapon without there being a wrestling match, I would not want to be having to deal with slides and safeties.

As to weapons around kids, the guns probably safe as long as you have it on you. But once you don't have it where you can control it, I'd keep it with no round in the chamber at a minimum (maybe even keep the magazine out but easily accessible) if it wasn't actually locked up unloaded. With kids if something bad can happen it probably will. They are just too curious. There was a case last year where someone kept a loaded gun in the glove compartment, they left the car with their 2-3 year old in his car seat. The boy got out, got to the glove compartment and shot himself. To me any chance of something like that happening is just not worth it - guns do kill people not just the bad guys with them.
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Old March 9, 2013, 03:15 PM   #88
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Something very important which I haven't seen mentioned is why the OP is uncomfortable with carrying his gun with a round in the chamber. So, are you uncomfortable with this practice because you fear that the trigger will unintentionally get pulled or are you uncomfortable because you fear the gun will fire accidentally if dropped?
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Old March 17, 2013, 05:00 PM   #89
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Being a lefty and wanting to switch from revolvers to a semi-auto it wasn't easy finding one I liked. I settled on the Glock. Which I carried chambered but like my revolver made sure nothing but my finger got in the trigger guard. I never considered carrying with an empty chamber becasue I have kids and if I ever needed my weapon adding an extra step seemed foolish and dangerous.
Today watching this video of a dog attacking a 4 year old I couldn't/can't see myself letting go of my child to chamber a round...
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#...ed-by-dog.wabc
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:21 PM   #90
B.O.F.H.
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I couldn't find a pocket pistol in da/sa with the slide mounted safety of the Beretta 92 series. So, I just took to carrying a 92. YMMV
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:30 PM   #91
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You obviously thought it out and determined that is the best carry method for you. For what it is worth, I support your decision.
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Old March 21, 2013, 02:46 PM   #92
db4570
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OP here. For the last couple weeks I have been carrying the gun un-chambered but with a full mag, just to get used to it.

I know I keep going back and forth on this, but I really like the extra level of safety I get from this.

I like that if something happens when I re-holster, the gun won't go off. I think about this because I am carrying it in a hybrid holster, and the Kydex is molded tight around the trigger guard with only about 1/16" between the Kydex and the trigger.

I also like that if for some reason I were to have a major brain fart and someone got hold of it that shouldn't, there would be one additional step before they could fire it.

I like that when it is holstered I don't care where the muzzle is pointed. I know it's not going to spontaneously go off, but I don't like the idea of a loaded gun being pointed at anyone, holstered or not. I know it's a bit obsessive.

I weigh all this against the possibility that for some reason I would not be able to quickly rack the slide when needed. I am a good pistol shot, but am not about to win any quick-draw contests, anyway.

I like that I am comfortable carrying it all the time, which, at this point in my level of experience, is more important than saving a second on the draw.

I will continue to evaluate my carry system and evolve as my needs and experience change. I really appreciate the input from everyone, and look forward to any additional comments.

David
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Old March 21, 2013, 03:09 PM   #93
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db4570, when I first started carrying, I also carried for the first few weeks in the same condition: full mag, nothing chambered. My reasoning was essentially the same, as well: I just wasn't comfortable carrying with a round chambered, and I figured that it was better that I carry with a little more peace of mind, than not carry at all. After several weeks, I began carrying with a round chambered, and it is now the only way I carry.

I actually know a probation officer who carries in the same condition, and he's carried for years. His reasoning is that if a prisoner gets his gun, he will have one extra chance to regain control, because the prisoner won't be able to shoot him without chambering a round.

As you get more comfortable carrying, you may eventually decide to carry with a round chambered, and that's fine. But if that happens, just make the switch and stick with it. Do not carry with a round chambered some times, and without any round chambered at other times. Carrying with a round chambered carries certain risks. Carring without a round chambered carries different risks. Switching back and forth, well, kinda carries the risks of both kinds of carry.
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Old March 27, 2013, 08:19 AM   #94
db4570
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Quote:
As you get more comfortable carrying, you may eventually decide to carry with a round chambered, and that's fine. But if that happens, just make the switch and stick with it. Do not carry with a round chambered some times, and without any round chambered at other times. Carrying with a round chambered carries certain risks. Carring without a round chambered carries different risks. Switching back and forth, well, kinda carries the risks of both kinds of carry.
My thoughts exactly, Spats. With this in mind, I originally started looking for a gun with the exact operation as mt Beretta 92. I found a sweet S&W CS9 that works exactly the same: SA/DA, de-cocking safety flips up to fire. Only difference in operation was no exposed hammer for cocking (which I may change) and it has a mag safety. But I liked the fact that all of the basic operation is the same.

But it's bigger and heavier than what I want to carry, which led me to falling in love with the Ruger LCP, which operates completely differently. I don't like the idea of switching back and forth between pistols with different operation, but I suppose people do it all the time.

I had looked at a Bersa Thunder 380, but it was a little too big. I tried to get my hands on a Bersa 380 CC, but am thinking it will still be significantly larger than what I want. I even thought about a PPK, because they are a bit smaller than the Bersas, but they're heavy. I liked these alternatives because they too had the same operation as the Beretta 92. But once I carried the LCP around for a while, I am completely spoiled because it's so tiny.

I am now debating how to carry the 92 and the CS9 when I do. I currently carry them chambered and on safe, but am wondering if they, too should be unchambered for consistency with the LCP.

Things were a lot easier with wheel-guns!

David
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Old March 27, 2013, 08:30 AM   #95
Iron Man
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I had an LCP and hated it. Deeply. I carry a Walther PPK every day. It fits almost anywhere. It's accurate, dependable, rock solid, proven, and it has a decocker/safety so I can have a round chambered but have everything locked but accessible. Every person who has shot one of my PPKs (I have six) has ended up buying one.

It's a little bigger and heavier than the LCP, but not too much.
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Old March 27, 2013, 08:41 AM   #96
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Quote:
It's a little bigger and heavier than the LCP, but not too much.

Actually, it's more than *double* the weight of the LCP; 21 ounces versus less than 9.5 ounces.

I have a PPK as well, and really like it - but for a pistol its size, it's a pretty hefty chunk of metal - Even in the pocket of a leather coat, I feel like it's pulling the coat out of shape.
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Old March 27, 2013, 08:42 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db4570
My thoughts exactly, Spats. With this in mind, I originally started looking for a gun with the exact operation as mt Beretta 92. I found a sweet S&W CS9 that works exactly the same: SA/DA, de-cocking safety flips up to fire. Only difference in operation was no exposed hammer for cocking (which I may change) and it has a mag safety. But I liked the fact that all of the basic operation is the same.

But it's bigger and heavier than what I want to carry, which led me to falling in love with the Ruger LCP, which operates completely differently. I don't like the idea of switching back and forth between pistols with different operation, but I suppose people do it all the time.
db4570, there are some folks who do switch carry pistols. However, I think that most of us recognize the dangers of switching between different manuals of arms in doing so. I think your hesitation in switching between carry pistols with differing methods of operation is prudent.

I also think that looking for something that works in exactly the same way as some other pistol with which you're familiar (the Beretta, in your case) is also a good idea. For me, I would never carry a pistol with a decocker and a safety that goes up to fire. Why? Because it's not what I'm used to. Plain and simple. I know of no reason on the "engineering side of the equation" that would make me dislike either of those features. I'm sure they work exactly like they're supposed to. I also know that they work differently from the pistols I carry.
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