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Old March 23, 2013, 11:57 PM   #51
JohnKSa
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There are loads for all the common service pistol calibers from 9mm & up that pass the FBI test. The FBI test is actually a number of tests, several of which involve measuring penetration of a projectile after it has gone through intermediate barriers including plywood, sheet metal and glass. I think you'd be well served by any handgun loaded with something that passes the FBI test.

Nothing in any of the common calibers will defeat the common bullet proof vest protection levels, and the few handgun calibers that will, don't usually have a good selection of self-defense loadings. The FN FiveSeven might be the exception. Basically you should forget about trying to find a decent self-defense handgun/loading that will defeat vests. If you really think that vests are a problem you need to worry about, you need to go to long guns, or at least long-gun calibers.
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:06 AM   #52
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I will probably end up with a g33 and a Tokarev (which was linked earlier. What a cool piece for under 300). I will make no decisions before a test fire come Monday or Tuesday for 10mm, .40, and .357 sig. Ill post again after that with what I decide for those who might care to know. Ill be checking back in up until my purchase though. Finally registering and starting a post has been way more helpful than random google searches . I will def be around the forum from here on out.
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:10 AM   #53
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JohnKSa, thanks for the reply. I would be more than happy to pick up a five-seven if u have a lead at a reasonable price.
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:13 AM   #54
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Sorry, no 5.7 here.

I used to carry a gun chambered in .30Tok, but finally decided that the extra penetration was not worth giving up decent expansion or trading away capacity given that all the .30Tok guns have single-stack mags.

I guess you could do worse, but you should probably keep in mind that .30Tok and rounds like it have been around a very long time and their extreme penetration capabilities are well known. In spite of that, even militaries, who tend to be very concerned with body armor penetration, have not often chosen the fast .30 as an issue handgun round.

If you are really concerned about vests, you need to go to a long gun caliber or the FN 5.7 caliber. If the .30Tok was really a good solution for body armor, the FN 5.7 would never have even been invented.
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:20 AM   #55
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I didn't mean to make it seem that I would be purchasing the tokarev as a means to solving my question. More or less it just seems like a very interesting and fun pistol for under $300.
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Old March 24, 2013, 12:24 AM   #56
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They are fun, and they were even more fun when you could buy Chinese ammo for them for around 6 cents a round. I still have some of it left over from a 2100 round case that I bought years ago, but I'm starting to run a little low.
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Old March 24, 2013, 03:43 AM   #57
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Not a firearms related suggestion, but I would look into taking an evasive driving course.

If you are in a car, then that is your best bet of getting out of a situation. By all means have a firearm up to the job, (I was going to suggest 10mm, 357SIG or the Tokarev: I was beaten to it), I feel that if you have to resort to a gun, then you're already on the back foot.

Using your car as a means of defense with a repertoire of evasive/offensive techniques would possibly give you results without needing to draw
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Old March 25, 2013, 03:06 AM   #58
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Best caliber for situation described.

Geeez , this is starting to sound like mission impossible!! Get a bazooka!! How about the side mirror mounted windshield washer with mace? Really with some of these scenarios are here-say, with Kevlar and body armor anyway. May be good for you, but look alittle obvious.And the calipers just keep getting bigger and meaner. If someone sticks a gun in your face you give up the goods, if they think your armed too, you're dead! Period! How about a different line of work or brinks?
Sounds like your already doing everything within reason anyway.


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Old March 25, 2013, 03:25 AM   #59
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I am not an expert in these matters. I have however had the same concerns/needs that you have expressed. I have armed myself with 2 options both of which I feel offer maximum performance thru barriers. They are both from underwood ammunition 1. .357 sig 125gr gold dot. 2. 45 super 185gr gold dot. Both max velocity fully bonded loads. I'm sure thier are other options but these are both good choices for you Personal Requirements. Please keep in mind these are at or near maximum Pressure and should only be fired from very stout guns with full chamber support. If unsure consult a Gunsmith you trust for reccomendations. I have shot the 45 super from my 4566TSW with a 22 LB recoil Spring and the 357 sig load from an M&P with a 24 lb spring. Just be aware these loads ( underwood ammo, buffalo bore etc ) require extra caution and Preperation. Another excellent option is a +p load from black hills or Corbon with the Solid Copper Barnes bullet. For Futher info go to stopping power. Net forums Be Safe.
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Old March 25, 2013, 03:36 AM   #60
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In guarding ATM Technicians for a while (my Sons Security Company) your best weapons is your eyes and mind.

Being wide awake.

Carry a Glock 19, best fighting pistol in the world IMO, an extra G17 magazine, have an other in the car, out of sight, but easy for you to get to, grab and shoot.

At the Bank, back in to your parking spot. Try to carry money on your person, hands free. Do not worry about BGs with vests, if you have time to deploy a pistol, aim for the face, they are not going to shout from 20 yards away.

"Hey come over here to get robbed"

Drive up to the cash deposit, open it, throw the bag in, go home.
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Old March 25, 2013, 03:38 AM   #61
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Just a Follow up. 10mm is also an excellent choice. Just stick with Barnes bullets or something fully bonded.
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Old March 25, 2013, 07:40 AM   #62
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Best caliber for situation described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit View Post
In guarding ATM Technicians for a while (my Sons Security Company) your best weapons is your eyes and mind.

Being wide awake.

Carry a Glock 19, best fighting pistol in the world IMO, an extra G17 magazine, have an other in the car, out of sight, but easy for you to get to, grab and shoot.

At the Bank, back in to your parking spot. Try to carry money on your person, hands free. Do not worry about BGs with vests, if you have time to deploy a pistol, aim for the face, they are not going to shout from 20 yards away.

"Hey come over here to get robbed"

Drive up to the cash deposit, open it, throw the bag in, go home.
That's my EDC lol. But really good advice right here.
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Old March 25, 2013, 05:03 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big555 Again, I appreciate the responses, but if you paid attention to my posts I am not envisioning a big shoot out. I am merely asking if anyone has insight as too which caliber would be best suited to passing through windshields and possibly a vest while retaining stopping power. That's it. I don't want a third gun or second bug. I am looking for a single cartridge that would preform best.
How about a change in tactics and practicing for such an event? As JohnKSa pointed out, there are loads in every common service caliber to choose from here: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel..._FAQ/index.htm You might want to take the advice of Massad Ayoob and practice with your first shot placed Center of Mass with a follow up shot to the pelvic area just under vest level. If a perp were wearing a vest and didn't go down with the first shot CoM, that second round to the pelvis will at least take him off his feet. In your situation, I'd feel pretty comfortable with my 13+1 rounds of .45 ACP in the XDm 4.5, but since penetration after barrier testing was first conducted by the Texas DPS, you might want to take a page from their book and look into the .357 SIG. The load I use personally in .45 ACP is not on the FBI list for whatever reason, but in tests I've done shooting into water filled milk jugs, I get better penetration with excellent expansion with the Remington 185 gr. +P Golden Saber that has penetrated better than 230 gr. JHPs. And like the DPS, I believe in hedging all my bets first with shot placement, and by using a load that delivers 500 Ft/Lbs of KE into what I'm shooting at.
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Old March 25, 2013, 05:54 PM   #64
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Sounds like you'd be better off actually getting expert help , some training , what to look for, what to avoid .....
In my opinion , best way to win a gun fight is to avoid it.
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:54 PM   #65
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Since you're familiar with the Glock platform, maybe a Glock in 10mm?
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Old March 25, 2013, 10:35 PM   #66
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I'd just go with a Glock and keep a bunch of hi-caps around me. I say .45...go big or go home.
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Old March 25, 2013, 10:53 PM   #67
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If you need something with more punch than a .45 you need a rifle. But that doesn't seem practical for your purposes. I suppose 10mm Auto could be an option.

I will note since it was mentioned early on that most NIJ lvl IIIA soft armor (the heaviest you can get before adding hard plates) is rated to stop up to .44 Mag, including commercially available 5.7x28 rounds so if you were considering that for its armor penetrating abilities I urge you to reconsider.

+1 on finding a new neighborhood to do bank withdrawals in btw. Are you banking at Mogadishu Federal Credit Union? I've never felt the need to have more than one 1911 with a spare mag.
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Old March 25, 2013, 11:24 PM   #68
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AR Pistol with steel tipped penetration rounds. Will work on anything you come in contact with, plus you can conceal it under a jacket.
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Old March 26, 2013, 05:32 AM   #69
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Best caliber for situation described.

Taurus judge 410 "00" or "000" to the face., Throat Or nuts.
Put a hand grenade in your bag with pin tied to your wrist and give it to them



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Old March 26, 2013, 11:10 AM   #70
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Also, don't over look the .460 Rowland.
Technical Information

Caliber: 460 Rowland
Bullet Weight: 230 Grains
Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1001 ft. lbs.

Technical Information

Caliber: 460 Rowland
Bullet Weight: 185 Grains
Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1575 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1019 ft. lbs.
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Old March 26, 2013, 11:18 AM   #71
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Check http://www.ombguns.com for best prices on the 5.7.

FNH USA • Five-seveN USG / Adjustable Sights - 20 RND (Matte Black/Matte Black)
Price: $975.00
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Old March 26, 2013, 05:39 PM   #72
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Same mags same manual of arms same trigger same sights

For a high risk situation I'd just carry a glock 17 and if I felt I needed more I'd go with a second 17 and if I still wanted to carry a third it would be a glock 26. If you like 45 better then a glock 21 time two and a glock 30.
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Old March 26, 2013, 07:31 PM   #73
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Ahoy Big555,

I test all carry ammo for penetration thru hard barriers.

For trips to the bank, the carry package changes. I carry a 7.62x25 Tokarev in a shoulder holster, and a 44 Mag snubby, in an OWB. And last but not least, a 9mm PPS on the ankle. Hot ammo. No reloads, no mags, no speedloaders. I try to have 20 loaded rounds on hand. Bullets are fmj or hard cast, no HPs.

All holsters are custom made, designed for speed.

Best of luck to you, and

Check your 6.
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:15 PM   #74
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Quote:
Bullets are fmj or hard cast, no HPs.
So you want to cause as much collateral damage as possible? What's your logic behind this? You realize a hollowpoint will still go through glass and thin metal right?
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Old March 26, 2013, 08:46 PM   #75
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Yo TunnelRat,

In my penetration tests HPs have done poorly.

However, should the robber be wearing a vest and carrying a long gun, solid (penetrating) bullets are the most effective defense.

As for collateral damage, if the shot isn't there, I don't take it.
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