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Old March 24, 2013, 12:48 AM   #1
WildBill45
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pocket pistol tactics ... S&W 638

I took out my new S&W 638 to shoot a few pocket pistol tactics, deploying from the pocket in various scenarios... IT was a fun day. I hope you find something of value from it...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB3Dqng-BO4
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Old March 24, 2013, 06:05 AM   #2
skoro
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Good video. Thanks for posting. I carry a 642 and have often wondered how the 638 compares.
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Old March 24, 2013, 08:17 AM   #3
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Although I agree with most of what was said, I find major fault with one thing.
Dumping fired brass from the cylinder into your hand is a good way to get yourself dead. If you have a hand full of empty brass, you have no way to reload. You have to drop the empties before you can grab your reloads.
This was drilled into us at the academy, and in every firearms training class we ever took. Empties go straight to the ground.
Other than that point, WELL DONE.
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Old March 24, 2013, 09:05 AM   #4
WildBill45
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Quote:
Dumping fired brass from the cylinder into your hand is a good way to get yourself dead.
This was a training video while I was talking. Trust me, I use moon clips and speedloaders when personally training for real. The point was the concepts in this video. I could do as such as an example next time, and probably will since beginners may not read that deeply into it...
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Old March 24, 2013, 03:01 PM   #5
WildBill45
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Quote:
If you need to reload a revolver, you are dead if you have no other gun
.

is that so??? I can reload my wheel-gun faster than most folks I shoot with at my gun club, and on my old PD!

Here is a video of me and one of my pals doing just that, and i am loading from the rear pocket of my old jeans, no belt mounted holder of any kind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7XuWYHeUj4

General statements like that will get you in trouble. It tells us the crowd you hand with ... hand with some pros and your views may change.

EVEN IF YOU WERE RIGHT ... THE RELIABILITY OR A REVOLVER TRUMPS RELOADING ... A GUN MUST WORK FIRST, RELOAD SECOND.

Cops and Revolvers have been sorting out bad guys since the mid 1800s...

If you didn't miss shooting to get to cover, there is NO bad guys to charge. As you saw my bad guy would not be able or willing to charge full of holes. The bad guy, unless he is a hit man has no reason or desire to charge and engage for a robbery or other street crime, they are not that motivated on a stranger on stranger crime. If you are a drug dealer who owes money, maybe... Most would not risk life for a dime crime, why should they?

BACK ON POINT:

This is a tactics training video, and not a startup of revolvers vs. Autos, as being attempted at this time.
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Last edited by WildBill45; March 24, 2013 at 03:10 PM.
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Old March 25, 2013, 09:17 AM   #6
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Well, being fast as I am you are no match for a 6" blade, on top of that you are a big guy, you don't move as fast and being bigger you are closer to me already.
That is if you don't hurt me already with your gun.
This is just the thinking as a bad guy, [stuff] happens fast and if I want to hurt you you will not see it coming.
There is no Rambos, people that are trained for years can get hurt as well.
Good videos

Last edited by Vanya; March 25, 2013 at 10:16 AM. Reason: language.
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Old March 25, 2013, 09:35 AM   #7
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So it was said most self defense shooting is under 5 yards so a 5 shot revolver is too slow to reload........

I might agree with that but under 5 yards and you need to reload you have more problems then A fast reload will fix, you need to learn to shoot.
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Old March 25, 2013, 10:14 AM   #8
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Kraigwy

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Old March 25, 2013, 12:49 PM   #9
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Amen to KraigWY

Lest anyone have the illusion of 'modern combat competition' as reality, pray rid yourselves of it.

Actual defense circumstances happen typically close and the first shot or two are the crucial ones. The 'thirty round burst', so beloved of 'combat' matches are simply amusing pastimes. They can teach some good skills, but they do NOT reflect reality in any large measure.

The most important defensive round fired - in any given circumstance - will be one's FIRST shot.

Reloading is of some import, but making hits is more critical. Far more critical.

Attributed to Teddy Roosevelt: "Rapidity of fire cannot make up for inaccuracy of fire" - or words to that effect.
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:16 PM   #10
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We can debate this and that, and it never ends. The one thing beyond contestation is if you get as good as you can be, and practice your skill sets, this trumps talking points. Speed and accuracy kills. When you reach this point you will adapt to all the 'IFS' 'OR' and 'THATS" and sort it out by superior skills.

Putting that first shot on the bad guy before he does it to you is the only point of value ... no matter the gun of choice, holster, or church you attend or don't attend.

This pocket pistol tactic training is preparing with the most likely gun you will have most of the time. YES, a .500 will stop better, a 32 round mag will give you more shots, but, and there always is a but in life, after the novelty wears out you will most likely will have that heavy, large, and bulking monster at home, and carrying a small pocket pistol. So get good with it!!!
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:39 PM   #11
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You are right there, and thats why I carry only one gun, the one I train with
No need for surprises when in bad situation
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Old March 25, 2013, 08:53 PM   #12
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The "small pocket pistol" I'm carrying and practicing with lately is an XDS 45cal. It surely fills the pocket but I've carried it daily for over a month, and I make it work. I carry the spare 7 round mag in weak side pocket. It replaces my PM9 most of the time.

I have a 442 (no lock) and I'm quite fond of it. However, I just can not shoot it as well as the PM9 or the XDS. It carries less rounds and I'm slower at reloads than the semi's. I'll not part with it and I will carry it on occasion. Can't beat a shrouded revolver for shooting out of the pocket and I'll not contest the uber reliability a revolver affords.
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Old March 27, 2013, 04:59 PM   #13
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Was it Bill Jordan who said (approximately) "If you don't get it done with the first six, six more probably won't help much"?

I think it was.

I also think it was FBI research that showed the typical shooting incident occurring at very close range, involving the expenditure of two or three rounds, and lasting something like five seconds.

As wiser guys than I have already said here, making those first shots good ones is more likely to save one's bacon than having fifteen more to use.

And of course the real first rule of gunfighting is "Stay out of gunfights."
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Old March 27, 2013, 08:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
I also think it was FBI research that showed the typical shooting incident occurring at very close range, involving the expenditure of two or three rounds, and lasting something like five seconds.
Stats mean nothing if you ARE THE ONE who is at 25 yards, shooting all five or six in something like 1 second! The one call that gave me shivers is when a dispatcher sent me on a call, prefaced with the comment, "No Weapons!" I then knew to expect Browning 50 cal machineguns, Gernade launchers and more!

Nothing happens as planned or as the stats show ... trust me on this...

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your perspective.

I have said this before, and lived this before. Off duty cops and civilian superheros will most likely carry a superlight gun as an everyday carry gun, but, and there always is but in life, let a bad guy with a gun or knife show up on the scene and they want a 500 S&W instead!
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Old March 28, 2013, 11:25 AM   #15
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Procedure....

That's why I go no where without my wife.

After I fire my initial 5 rounds, I pull out of the fight and she steps in.

I reload and usually go grab a quick cup of Joe.

When I return.... she's still TALKIN EM' TO DEATH!
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Old March 28, 2013, 01:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
That's why I go no where without my wife.

After I fire my initial 5 rounds, I pull out of the fight and she steps in.

I reload and usually go grab a quick cup of Joe.

When I return.... she's still TALKIN EM' TO DEATH!
I know this is a very serious topic thread, but that was a good LOL!
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Old March 31, 2013, 03:02 AM   #17
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Wildbill may be fast, but he prestaged his moonclip for easy grabbing, did anyone else see him reach in his pocket to set the moonclip up to be able to grab it quicker. He also had a firing grip on his gun before the fellow tossed the thing in the air. Not quite the even contest he presents it as.
I will give him he is fast and smooth in doing the reload

After shooting his waves the pistol around with no regard for muzzle control and at the end of the video appears to sweep the muzzle in front of his friend. It is no matter if the arm was empty or not, It was just lousy gun handling. Of course that is just my professional opinion.
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Old April 2, 2013, 06:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Well, being fast as I am you are no match for a 6" blade, on top of that you are a big guy, you don't move as fast and being bigger you are closer to me already.
Brave words. Never take a knife to a gunfight.
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Old April 5, 2013, 09:42 PM   #19
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No comment, changed my mind, was off point...
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Last edited by WildBill45; April 5, 2013 at 09:53 PM. Reason: changed my mind, a response not needed as it was off point
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Old April 6, 2013, 11:40 AM   #20
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Good video.
Thanks.
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Old April 22, 2013, 10:57 PM   #21
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A second posting, regarding 'knife vs. gun'

The "21 foot" rule has spawned some really stupid conclusions.

The "21 foot" rule, or Tueller concept says a person with a holstered handgun cannot react fast enough to avoid being injured by an attacker armed with a knife within 21 feet.

This has been taken to mean - by some - that within a 21 foot radius, a person armed with a knife will always defeat a person armed with a handgun. This is NOT true.

What it means is, whoever starts the fight within 21 feet is nearly always going to get in the first lick. A person armed with a knife, baseball bat, cattle prod or handgun who STARTS the action will [usually] score the first blow.

This also assumes the attacker doesn't try to intimidate or impress the perceived victim by demonstrating his weapon. If a person is brandishing a knife or impact weapon and is closing on me, I will be, at the very least, getting a proper grip on my sidearm, opening any retention devices and planning my next move (shoot, move, push dependents out of line of action, signalling for assistance, etc).

Wild Bill, I understand your reaction to the dispatch call. I remember going through a couple of academies and being trained in a multitude of possible scenarios in a multitude of disciplines. The first event on duty was NEVER covered in the manual. Not even close.
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Old April 23, 2013, 07:01 AM   #22
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Based on Tom Givens' presentation regarding the 60+ defensive gunfights his students (Memphis TN area) have been involved in, the AVERAGE gunfight was 3 shots at 3 feet or less and was over in 3 seconds.

But, I thought he put that in proper context by saying not to put too much stock in averages. For one thing, if you prepare for the average that means you're under-prepared half the time. For another, you can have one foot in a bucket of ice and the other in a campfire and on average you're comfortable. But if you don't want to get burned, you'd better be able to handle a fire even if on average you don't need to.

Of these DGUs that Tom Givens' students encountered, at least one of them involved stopping a man 25 yards away who was crouched behind a car. Another one of the DGUs was 11 shots and the reason it wasn't more was because the gun went dry at 11 rounds and there wasn't time for a reload. The average gun fight was 3 rounds/feet/seconds but that is just an average.

All that said, nothing wrong with a 638 and I carry one too. There are times when that small of a gun is all I can readily carry given how I have to dress sometimes. When I'm able to dress more to my liking though, the 638 becomes the BUG and a more conventional autoloader gets carried too. Yet another line I remember from Tom Givens' presentation was the observation that, in debriefing these private citizen DGUs and a number of police gunfights, he said that (paraphrasing) no one in a gun fight ever wished they had a gun that shot a less powerful round or held fewer rounds of ammunition.
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Old April 24, 2013, 07:09 PM   #23
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I have a .45, a 500 S&W, and more ... this was not that debate, this is a training video when YOU DO have a small wheel gun, which is one of the most carried guns in firearms history.

Take it from a street pro long in experience ... Big heavy guns, especially in summer are mostly carried by cops. Why? Because if they are printed or spotted they are more secure if approached by other LE. It is a hassle to have the cops called on you, and/or just plain carry a big gun all the time. Some folks who do not work in the field like the novelty of the big gun carry, and will after years of carry go light more often.

If you let a gun change your reactions or personality it will get you in trouble ... in more ways than one. If you would run without a gun, run with one. Take my advice and live longer, and free longer!!!!!!!!!!
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Old April 24, 2013, 08:40 PM   #24
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Nanuk, sorry to dissapoint you but you are not a match for a good blade
You will not see it coming
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Old April 25, 2013, 07:15 PM   #25
WildBill45
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Quote:
Nanuk, sorry to dissapoint you but you are not a match for a good blade
People like you always make the same mistake bikers, crime guys, and other over confident fellows do...

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I AM NOT A BLADE GUY?

EVER HEARD OF KUZAN? My Sensei in the way of the sword, short and long ...

Only a fool does such, and I am glad they do...

Go back to your comic books now and keep the posting on point...
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