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Old March 19, 2013, 12:51 PM   #1
mhancock
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need 308 advice

I am new to the forum and the 30 caliber hand loads. I picked up a new Remington 700 AAC-SD to shoot in some local f class events. Being new to the 308, none of my previous magnum powders seem right for this rifle so I have avoided loading anything. I have heard that 4064, rl15, and varget are some of the better choices but unfortunately I cant locate anything close to me to buy. I have a match coming up in April and would really like to work up a load for this gun before then. Can anyone help guide me in the right direction? The powders I have on hand are all better suited to my stw or rum. I have 7828, 4350, 4831, retumbo, and rl25 and plenty of all of these...lol
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Old March 19, 2013, 01:03 PM   #2
Bart B.
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If it's got a 24" barrel, use 48 grains of IMR4350 under a Sierra 200-gr. HPMK bullet. That load's won many a match and set records at 600 yards and beyond.
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Old March 19, 2013, 02:57 PM   #3
mhancock
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Thanks. I loaded some 165's with 48g of 4350 and tried it. I got a 15 shot group inside of 2 1/2" with several key holes but I feel it will do better. This was a somewhat compressed load.
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Old March 19, 2013, 03:55 PM   #4
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At what distance?? , Are you taking that to 600??
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Old March 19, 2013, 04:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
If it's got a 24" barrel, use 48 grains of IMR4350 under a Sierra 200-gr. HPMK bullet. That load's won many a match and set records at 600 yards and beyond.

I was unable to get more than 47.5 grains of IMR 4350 in my cases, and that was to the top of the neck. Bullet seating was a mess. Push the bullet down, crunch powder, powder pushes the bullet back. No consistent OAL.

Overall I found IMR 4350 and H4350 just too slow in the 308 with any of the bullets I tried.

Code:
M70 26" Kreiger Barrel, four groove, 1:10 twist
					
190 gr Speer Match 45.0 grs H4350 wt'd R-P cases Fed 210S
					
9 Mar 97 T=70F				
					
Ave Vel =	2301				
Std Dev =	24				
ES =	65				
Low =	2272				
High =	2337				
N =	5				
					
190 gr Speer Match 46.0 grs H4350 wt'd R-P cases Fed 210S
					
9 Mar 97 T=70F				
					
Ave Vel =	2382			 	
Std Dev =	17				
ES =	36				
Low =	2365				
High =	2401				
N =	6				
					
0.73"*0.83"				
					
190 gr Speer Match 47.5 grs H4350 wt'd R-P cases Fed 210S
					
30 April  97 T=72F				
					
Ave Vel =	2414			 	
Std Dev =	9				
ES =	23				
Low =	2402				
High =	2425				
N =	9				
					
					
155 Nosler 46.0 grs IMR 4350 wtd, Lot 6164 (60's) mixed cases CCI 200 OAL 2.780"
							
29 May 2010 T =  82 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2418				 		
Std Dev =	17				 		
ES =	60				 		
High =	2441				 		
Low =	2381				 		
N =	10						
							
155 Nosler 47.0 grs IMR 4350 wtd, Lot 6164 (60's) mixed cases CCI 200 OAL 2.790"
							
29 May 2010 T =  82 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2490				 		
Std Dev =	17				 		
ES =	59				 		
High =	2515				 		
Low =	2456				 		
N =	10	
Try looking for IMR 4895/H4895/AA2495. These work great up to 175 grain bullets in the 308.
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Old March 19, 2013, 04:21 PM   #6
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Slamfire,
I seem to remember getting close to 50 grains IMR 4350 at top-off with 6" drop tube. But, I can't remember
as I am at work.. But, Yes, I feel it is too slow as well.
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Old March 19, 2013, 06:59 PM   #7
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As Dan Newberry reported in another thread, W748 works very well in .308 Win. I also use Ramshot TAC and Varget.
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Old March 19, 2013, 07:31 PM   #8
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Re: need 308 advice

Remember, your gun is not a 24" barrel, it will have some problems getting the necessary velocity with heavy rounds to go the distance...
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Old March 19, 2013, 08:40 PM   #9
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I know that Bart B. will chime in with the stick powder being more accurate than ball powder, but there are a number of ball powders that will work if you can find them.

Win 748, Ramshot's; Hunter, TAC, and Big Game; Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR are all worth a look. Accurate 2230 and 2520 would be my last choice for a "just need something in the right burn rate" category based on other folks reviews, haven't used them myself so take that for what it is worth.

For stick powder, IMR or H4895, IMR4064, Varget, Re15, and if you don't mind paying a real premium N140, N150, N540, and N550 all work.

Good luck.

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Old March 19, 2013, 08:58 PM   #10
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Regarding heavy bullets in .308 cases, 44 gr. of IMR4320 under a Sierra 190 (or a 185 gr. Lapua) or 48 gr. of IMR4350 under a Sierra 200 are the only two bullets and powders of that ilk that worked well with that cartridge. Bullets lighter tend to do best with powders at or faster than IMR4064.

Any powder will shoot a bullet out of a .308 case. Some do it more consistant than others. Depending on ones ability to measure the difference with their stuff will end up with most any powder to be good for their objectives.
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Old March 19, 2013, 10:14 PM   #11
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My Savage LE2B shoots the 200 SMK's with a heavy charge of Varget really well...

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Old March 20, 2013, 06:57 AM   #12
Bart B.
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Dan, it sure did for those 5 shots.
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Old March 21, 2013, 09:31 AM   #13
Jeff2131
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I reload .308....

50-60grain sierra....IMR4320 45 gr charge
80 grain sierra.........IMR4350 47 gr charge

Thats middle of the road and at 100 yards and zero head space, i do well.
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Old March 21, 2013, 10:04 AM   #14
mhancock
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Thanks guys for all the useful information. I agree that in my rifle the 4350 is to slow for what I want to do with the rifle. I also know that with the reduced barrel length, getting velocity from the load is going to be important. I had this powder simply because my tried and true long range stw uses them. I wanted to try it first. I also tried some h322 that the 6.5 likes but feel I will be going a different direction for this gun. I know the 308 is a very stable and repeatable platform so it was an obvious choice for venturing into the 30 caliber world.
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Old March 21, 2013, 11:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
50-60grain sierra....IMR4320 45 gr charge
80 grain sierra.........IMR4350 47 gr charge

Thats middle of the road and at 100 yards and zero head space, i do well.
I think you are missing a couple of '1's in there....

Such as:

150-160 grain sierra....
180 grain sierra....
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Old March 22, 2013, 11:41 PM   #16
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my .308 loads

I have used Varget, IMR4032, H4895 and Benchmark with a 168g Sierra MK, CCI primers and lapua brass. I have chrony'd all these powders with various loads to get them to 2700fps .... I am using an AR10 DPMS LR308 (24" 1:10 SS barrel) here are my faves:

Varget: 44g (2708 fps)
H4895: 42.5g (2699 fps)
IMR 4320 : 44g (2701 fps)
Benchmark: 42g (2698 fps)

*velocities are an average of a 10 shot group*

using the same loads on Hornady Amax 168g bullets, I got tighter groups at 100 yds, but larger ones a 200, 300, 400. I prefer my Sierra MK as those groups tend to be consistent out to 900 yds. The BC are .475 for the Hor Amax and .462 for the Sie MK.
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Old April 9, 2013, 12:44 PM   #17
mhancock
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Well guys, I finally got some different powders to try. I picked up Varget, RL15, and IMR 4640.

I haven't really done any development with them and haven't loaded imr in anything. I did try the other 2 and was very surprised how well the RL15 did at relatively close range. I'm planning to load a few more the same way and stretch it out to 200 and 300 this afternoon.

Not sure how to load a photo yet but it was just one large jagged hole. The load was as follows and hopefully you can tell me how this should do at longer range.

RL15 44gr, Hornady match brass, CCI primer, and 165 gr Sierra mkhp. Book says 2820 but didn't run it through chronograph yet.
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Old April 9, 2013, 01:14 PM   #18
TATER
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165 is going to be GameKings not MK, the bc is going to be different. Though,
its not going to effect that much at 200-300.
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Old April 9, 2013, 01:33 PM   #19
mhancock
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That is correct it is the gk. I hope my 168s will do as well. Mk has always done well in my stw. I'm still learning what this 308 likes. We have some 168s too but I'm going to try the 165s at range today. May not be good for competition but could be excellent hunting round.
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Old April 9, 2013, 03:13 PM   #20
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This is just the info I joined this forum for, I have been reloading pistol calibers for years and just starting in to rifles, and needed suggestions on where to start at loading for a dpms lr 308, please continue to post your results.thanks!
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Old April 9, 2013, 09:52 PM   #21
Bart B.
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The old "addage" that a given barrel chambered for a given cartridge "likes" a particular load recipie has always puzzled me. Especially when over decades of competitive rifle shooting, every .308 Win. chambered barrel of all types with a given twist I've observed "liked" the same load recipie. They all shot very good in the hands of top ranked competitors winning matches and setting matches with virtually the same load with different barrels.

And unless the barrel's got horrible bore, groove and/or chamber dimensions, they all shoot good commercial match ammo as well as gumming match ammo very well indeed.

Perhaps there's something besides the thouands of recipies out there that are liked by as many barrels that's the reason. Could it be some other variable that's not being considered is the reason?
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Old April 10, 2013, 09:55 AM   #22
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Really it all boils down to pressure curves and harmonics. Which is why some powders are known to do better in 308 than others.

Of course when you start trying to quantify the interaction between even simple variables you get into complex or even chaotic math really quickly.

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Old April 11, 2013, 06:21 AM   #23
Bart B.
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Jimro, it just the pressure curve. Harmonics are constant across all loads.

A given barrel whips, wiggles, vibrates at the same frequency for every round fired regardless of the load used. The barrel's dimensions and metal properties stay the same for all rounds fired.
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Old April 11, 2013, 09:39 AM   #24
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Quote:
A given barrel whips, wiggles, vibrates at the same frequency for every round fired regardless of the load used. The barrel's dimensions and metal properties stay the same for all rounds fired.
Not really. Magnitude of frequency changes based on starting energy. Barrel dimensions and the modulus of elasticity changes with heat and fouling. If barrels rang the same with every shot they wouldn't "walk" or change group size as they warmed up. And as the barrel fouls we wouldn't see pressure differences that contribute to those differences in magnitude.

Like I said, simple things get complicated rather quickly. As you have noted before, if you measure the group at the muzzle every rifle shoots 0 MOA size groups, but that isn't a useful way of measuring accuracy.

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Old April 12, 2013, 09:31 AM   #25
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Quote:
A given barrel whips, wiggles, vibrates at the same frequency for every round fired regardless of the load used.
I don't know that for barrels, because I have never seen a barrel/action modeled in a finite element simulation. I have seen enough structures change their vibrational modes, based on energy inputs, to believe, that it is very probably that vibration patterns in actions/barrels vary with loads.
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