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Old March 17, 2013, 07:46 AM   #1
geetarman
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Stock alternative

I have a Remington 700 BDL 22-250 with a 8-32 NightForce scope.

The rifle has a Douglas barrel that was fitted about 3 years ago. The stock is original but the new barrel was glass bedded.

The gun is very capable of small groups. . .until last Friday. Best I could do was 4 inch group at 100 yards with a 55 gr. Speer match bullet and 38.4 gr. H380.

Took it to the smith that did the work and showed him the target and he put the gun in a vise and opened the floor plate. The magazine box was shifted.

He then loosened the front stock screw and felt the action move in the stock. He retightened and let me feel the jump. He repositioned the magazine box where it is supposed to be and retightened the action screws and the jump went away.

A 22-250 has almost zero recoil, yet the rifle action has moved. I do not want a repeat.

My question for you, is if you are really happy with the rifle but not so much with the stock, what stock would you recommend?

The rifle has a butt ugly factory stock from the 70's with the crappy polyurethane finish. I have never liked it but the rifle just shot so good I never changed it.

Now is the time to change things and keep the action and barrel.

Which way would you go? Composite or another wood stock?

This gun will deliver 5 shots at 100 yards into a dime size group. It has done it time after time. It is an old gun with a newer barrel and I really want to keep it and get it shooting good again.

As always, I appreciate your input. Thanks in advance.
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:05 AM   #2
oldgunsmith
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Likely either the guard screws were loose, the magazine box wasn't installed correctly, or the glass bed job wasn't done right. You can eliminate the first two. Shoot it some more and see if it does it again.
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Old March 17, 2013, 05:00 PM   #3
geetarman
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The job was done by the smith at the range and he does a whole lot of work.

His reputation is pretty darn good. I don't know how the box would have shifted out of position and that is what prompted the question of maybe a different type of stock to make sure it does not happen again.

When we checked the screws before we loosened anything, they were tight.

It was only when we loosened them you could feel the action move.

I could tell there was some pressure on the stock because a dollar bill would not pass between the barrel and the stock and it was snug on the left side.

I am really trying to figure out what to do to prevent it from occurring again.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:37 PM   #4
Jerry45
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First) does it have slotted or hex hex screws? Second) Is it to be a bench rest gun or a hunting rifle? Third) How much you want to pay for a stock?

My hunting rifle is in this one. http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet...actical/Detail

My bench-rest gun is in this one http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet...actical/Detail

Get hex head screws http://www.midwayusa.com/product/435...cm_vc=wishList torque them down to 50 In. Lbs. in either stock. Get two rear, Cut the front one to length you need.

You can't torque the screws down that tight in the original stock it will crack.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:29 PM   #5
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Jerry,

Thanks for the response. The rifle has slotted screws. At my age, I am not going to be hunting any more. I do like punching holes in paper.

I don't know that I want to build a full blown bench gun but really would like to have something better and more stable than I have.

I think your build for a hunting rifle would move me into a more capable rifle and is probably the way I would go.

I am going to shoot what I have Friday and may just wander down to the gunsmith and get some input from them. They do a lot of work for shooters in the Phoenix area and have never steered me wrong.

I will keep your input in mind. Thank you.
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:42 PM   #6
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This is pretty much what your rifle would look like in the B&C stock minus the brake. I took the brake off right after I put it in this stock. Stock is for a heavy barre but it looks just fine to me with light barrel. Lots of room for air flow. You can use the slotted screws but the hex head make torquing it to 50 In. Lbs. a lot easier.




This is the big stick. You don't want to be toting it around the woods.

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Old March 17, 2013, 11:44 PM   #7
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B&C Medalist stocks with the aluminum bedding block are pretty good but heavy, HS Precision stocks are very nice and lighter than the B&C units, Stockys Stocks Ultrawood stocks that have the aluminum bedding block are pretty nice and have nice wood. Or you could go with a real fiberglass stock and have the ideal stock, no shifting because of humidity or moisture, lightweight, and rock solid. Or I could bed the original wood stock and pretty much guarantee that you will not have issues. Pretty much your choice, depends how much you want to put into it.
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Old March 17, 2013, 11:44 PM   #8
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Pillar bed it

It sounds to me like your wood stock needs a good pillar bedding job.

The most accurate rifle I have is a Rem 700 BDL that has been blue-printed & a 22" med heavy SS Hart installed with a standard size .270 chamber. I kept the original Remington stock except that it was pillar bedded, glass bedded, floated, plastic forend & grip cap replaced with ebony & a limbsaver butt pad replaced the steel cap. The hardest part was getting that so called "bowling pin" finish off the stock so I could put on the TruOil! LOL

I torque the action screws down 60lbs. I can take the action in & out of the stock & the zero never changes. With it's favorite load & me having a good day, it makes nice single hole "bumblebugs". I can load & mix several different brands of 130gr bullets & it will still shoot < MOA! As a matter of fact, most 100gr, 130gr, & 150gr loads all shoot to the same practical zero at 100 yds! This gun originally came from the factory 42+ yrs ago so I figure, this wood stock is as stable as it will ever get!

My Texas sendero rifle.

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Old March 18, 2013, 10:49 PM   #9
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Have you tried tightening the screws, then opening the floorplate and feeling for any play at all in the box? I'd bet the farm it isn't magic. Something real is causing the problem. It wouldn't hurt to tighten the screws, then back them off about a half turn at a time and see how many turns it takes before paper will slip between the barrel and forend. The barrel should not be tight in the channel before the action is tight in the stock. Neither side should be tighter than the other.
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Old March 18, 2013, 11:12 PM   #10
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McMillan in whatever flavor you desire.

Whether it is a more traditional design you are looking for, or something more tactical, or maybe ultralight. Colors and options of your choosing, lots of colors and options in most cases.

Definitely not the least expensive option, but you have a really excellent scope and and excellent barrel. Mcmillan makes excellent stocks that are tough enough to go through combat. Price range probably isn't out of your reach for what you seem to be going for for this rifle.

The only negative thing about it is there is a wait time of 5 months to get it ordering direct from them.
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Old March 19, 2013, 02:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch
Or I could bed the original wood stock and pretty much guarantee that you will not have issues. Pretty much your choice, depends how much you want to put into it.
Scorch, how long from the time you receive a rifle, stock and action, to be beded until it's finished and returned? Another-words what's the waiting period.
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Old March 19, 2013, 08:39 AM   #12
geetarman
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Quote:
Have you tried tightening the screws, then opening the floorplate and feeling for any play at all in the box?
Oldgunsmith,

That is exactly what happened. The range gunsmith opened the floor plate and his first observation was the box was not sitting right.

He felt the rifle barrel and stock with one hand and loosened the front screw and felt the action move. He then tightened everything up and head me touch the barrel and stock and loosened the front screw again. Then, I felt the action move. He took the action out of the stock and set the box where it should be and tightened everything down again and there was no felt movement.

I think the issue is fixed and I will shoot it again Friday to confirm. I have had the rifle a long time and just do not want this to happen again which is what prompted the question about a replacement stock.

When I had the rifle re-barreled, it was shooting all over the place. This was a rifle that shot 3/4 inch groups at 200 yards. I thought I had just shot out the barrel. Now I am wondering if the box had shifted once before and then when the rifle was re-barreled and bedded, the problem went away for a while.

The rifle was bought and used in Illinois and the humidity is normally pretty high there. Out here in the desert, it is very dry most of the time and I have to wonder if 25 years in this climate took more moisture out of the wood and making it more likely for the action to move a bit.

I will know more by Friday. That rifle has been a favorite for a lot of years and I want to keep it and keep it shooting good.

52 gr bullets and 38-38.4 gr H380 just make it work well.

Thank you for the response.
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Old March 19, 2013, 10:56 AM   #13
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Quote:
Scorch, how long from the time you receive a rifle, stock and action, to be beded until it's finished and returned? Another-words what's the waiting period.
I generally turn a glass-bedding job in two weeks or less. Add your shipping time to that.
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Old March 19, 2013, 11:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch
I generally turn a glass-bedding job in two weeks or less. Add your shipping time to that.
I was expecting a minim of 2 to possibly 6 months. That's an excellent turnaround time.
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Old March 19, 2013, 05:37 PM   #15
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I do it for a living, not to pass the time. I don't want it to be a lifelong committment.

I think I misunderstood the question, though. I thought we were talking about glass bedding a rifle in the factory stock. If so, then yes, 2 weeks. If you meant how long to turn a complete restocking (inlet, shape, sand, and finish a semi-finished precarved stock), it's about 2 months from the time I get the stock (about 1 month of that is just applying finish letting the finish cure). If you want checkering, double that (I do checkering in batches).
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Old March 20, 2013, 04:06 PM   #16
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It was taking about glass bedding. I just can't bring myself to do "anything" to the original stock. Although it will probably never happen, I keep thinking, what if I ever want it back all original. I've always been that way with everything. I've never gone back to original with anything.

I actually don't think the new stock weighs any more than the original Walnut stock. Could be wrong about that. I've always been afraid of "scratching" the original. Not to worried about the "painted" compost one.
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Old March 22, 2013, 01:47 PM   #17
geetarman
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Well, the rifle is going from bad to worse.

After resetting the action last week, I went to the range again. Long story short, 3.5 inch group at 25 yards. Just awful. Went to the smith again and we decided to swap the scope out and see if we can eliminate the scope as a variable.

I have the NF off and a Weaver K10 on and boresighted. Will have a go next week and try to get it ironed out. I have two loads that I am shooting. Both are proven performers. 52 gr. HPBT and either 38 or 38.4 gr. H380.

I did check the dollar bill around the barrel and it is free with no tight spots either before or after shooting.

Anyone have any input?
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Old March 22, 2013, 03:56 PM   #18
Jerry45
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I went through the same thing with my 06. That's how I ended up with the NightForce then the new stock.

Check the mounts/rail make sure they/it's not loose. Make sure the scope rings are tight to rail and at the scope (LockTite is your friend). Make sure the action screws are torque properly and if the barrel is free-floated that it does contact the stock when on whatever you are using for a rest. When was the last time it got a good cleaning? Copper fouling will also cause a rifle to loose accuracy. I would hope the smith checked all of that for you before telling you to change scopes.

It went from shooting like this at 100 yds. That's a 1" circle.



To shooting like this. That's a 1/2" diamond top to bottom side to side. The low one was cause by the loose nut on the back end of the rifle.

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Old March 22, 2013, 04:07 PM   #19
geetarman
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I usually scrub the bore after every outing.

This gun went from a tack driver to "not in the game at all" very suddenly.

I checked all the mounting screws for the scope after I took it off. Nothing rattles and nothing seems to be loose.

I have the K10 on the rifle now and have it bore sighted. It should be 1 hole groups at 25 yards. Today it was 3.5 inches. That gun has NEVER been that bad.

I will know more Friday.
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Old March 22, 2013, 04:19 PM   #20
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You said that the ammo box was shifted and that the smith loosened the front action screw, put the box back in place then tightened the screw(s). Correct? Is the barrel free-floated? If so is it still clear all the way back to the action. Run a dollar bill from the muzzle end back to the receiver. It should slide freely the whole way. (unless he has it bedded past the recoil lug) It should do the same when on your rest.

You say you "scrub" the gun after every outing. How does the rifling look at the muzzle? How's the crown look? Smooth? Even? That's something else the smith should have taken a look at for you.

How many rounds down the tube? Not sure if 22-250 is barrel burner or not.
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Old March 23, 2013, 11:43 AM   #21
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You said in your first post that the barrel was bedded...

That's odd, but not unheard of. Conventional wisdom is to free-float for consistency.

I suspect your issue is one of barrel harmonics due the barrel not being free-floated.

It shot well with the barrel bedded, until the action shifted.

Once it shifted, the contact points/pressure points on the barrel changed- for the worse. Even re-seating probably did not get it back precisely to where it was before.

You said you really don't like the stock anyway, so I'd replace it. Laminate stocks are fine but you need to install pillars at minimum and preferably bed the receiver as well- and free-float the barrel this time.

Or, get a composite stock with an integral aluminum bedding block and be done with it.

IMO, you may be chasing ghosts now as it may be impossible to get those magic harmonics back now. If it were mine, I'd grind out the barrel bedding to free-float it for the heck of it to see what happens.
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Old March 23, 2013, 01:59 PM   #22
Jerry45
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700 BDL's are not banded. I don't see where he said that either but sometime I do miss things.
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Old March 23, 2013, 07:50 PM   #23
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You mean "bedded"?
The OP said it in the second line of his first post.

Quote:
The rifle has a Douglas barrel that was fitted about 3 years ago. The stock is original but the new barrel was glass bedded.
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Old March 23, 2013, 10:03 PM   #24
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You wrote bedded I read banded. Dyslexia rears it ugly head again. Sorry! Yes he did write bedded.
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Old March 24, 2013, 11:17 AM   #25
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Just as a follow up.

I went back through my logbook and the rifle had a new barrel installed and action bedded in November 2009. The barrel has 926 rounds through it to date.

Best group was .4325 for 5 shots on 7/23/2010.

The last good group was shot on 4/20/2012 and the gun was not shot again until 3/15/2013.

The rifle was not shot for almost a year. It was cleaned before it was put away in the safe.

I am using Hoppes on the bore today and the patches are coming out clean.

I use the Otis system and pull the bore brush from the chamber to the muzzle.

The crown looks good and the rifling at the crown looks good.

The preferred load for this rifle is 52 gr SMK and 38-38.4 gr. H380 loaded at 2.432 which is -.080 in. off the lands.

I have actually shot 5 factory rounds through this gun and my loads are better and none of them are barn burners. I do not chrono the loads. My loads are all well under maximum published loads for the caliber and show no signs of over pressure.
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