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Old March 10, 2013, 09:06 AM   #26
ClydeFrog
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home defense/firearms on a limited budget/skill level...

First, I'd advise you to sit down with her & really talk about her concerns/defense plans. She needs to know & understand the use of force laws and, more importantly, be able to use lethal force in a critical incident.

If she can't devote the time, $ and/or resources or won't use lethal force against another human being DO NOT buy her a firearm.
Also, let her rent or shoot a few different models. If she can't operate a semi auto pistol or safely load/unload/fire a DA only revolver then she isn't ready for a firearm. It sounds simple but many people can't safely work a slide or pull a DA revolver trigger.
If she does want to get a new handgun or buy a weapon & meets the criteria, I'd suggest a simple DA only snub revolver in .38spl. A Ruger LCR, a S&W model 638 a 442/642 or a 649. She can buy a Blackhawk SERPA J frame holster & add a CT lasergrip. For defense, .38spl +P or .380acp is the lowest I'd go. I'd also advise her to only use factory made ammunition for home defense no reloads or hand-loads. Her safety & well being are no place to go cheap or cut corners.

Encourage her to take a safety class & learn proper tactics.

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Old March 10, 2013, 01:41 PM   #27
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a med frame smith or ruger 38 special or a youth/bantaam weight 20ga.
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Old March 11, 2013, 10:09 PM   #28
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I too would recomend a semi auto pistol for the following reasons. A hundgun can easily be stored in a small safe, either biometric or push buttom combination lock (less exspensive),to keep the kids safe yet have it quickly accessable. Also, you can store it with no round chambered and still get it into action quickly with a little practice. Its easier to reload under stress, and she can keep it on her person if needed even if only at home. The biggest complaint I've heard from new women shooters is being able to rack the slide on a semi-auto. That can be learned with a little instruction and practice once she understands that it is a matter of technique rather than strength. She should be able to find a decent pistol with an extra mag, and a small safe in the $500 range. The lower dollar pistols like Keltec can be had new for around $300 or less and unless you plan on putting thousands of rounds through them should be plenty servicable for home defense. Just be sure she puts enough rounds through it to establish its reliability. I've owned 5 Keltecs and never had an issue but the lower cost guns may have a higher percentage of "lemons" so make sure you can count on it. That leaves money for a bedside safe, ammo, maybe even a little formal training.
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Old March 12, 2013, 02:05 PM   #29
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Ruger480, I am envious. I am probably one of the few whose hands just don't feel natural with a wheel gun in them. I wish I was proficient with them, but a semiauto feels more natural for my mitts.
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Old March 12, 2013, 08:55 PM   #30
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I have been thinking about the same thing, lately. My wife has expressed a want for a gun for protection in the home, when I am gone, and while she is not little, she has arthritis, and not a lot of strength, and regardless of what some of you say, I know she would probably have problems racking the slide on many semi's, and even a pump, plus if either one is not done correctly a jam may occur.

I am thinking about a shotgun, and cheap double might work, but not a hammer gun. I have considered an H & R Single shot, but they are pretty light and kick pretty hard, also even the 20ga single barrels can have a pretty vicious kick, because they are pretty light.

What I am considering is an old used Trap gun single barrel, because they are heavy, even if I cut the barrel down, and even one that is pretty worn out, will often be of much better quality then the H & R, but they are still more expensive. I have found a kind of rough old Winchester 101 single barrel trap for 500 and I am leaning towards it. Put a shell carrier on the stock, and go. It's very simple and loose enough to be easy to open and close. All she has to do is pick it up and load one round, close, push safety foward and pull the trigger if needed. No hammer to manipulate, even. If she fires it, the empty will eject when she opens it, and she can load another from the shell carrier. This is probably all she needs.

I have also found an old Lefever Trap gun, also but it's 600 and tax, however is much nicer, probably too nice. One thing I do sorta like about it is it doesn't have a safety, you just load it, and you either pull the trigger or you don't. It doesn't get much simpler then that, not even a safety to think about.

Of course I could just give her a Glock 19, load it with one up the pipe and all she would have to do is pick it up and pull the trigger, but I don't really think she needs that kind of readiness. I would much rather have an unloaded singlebarrel shotgun accessible which would only take few seconds to load.

The single shot is probably all of the fire power needed and pretty fool proof.

Last edited by Blue Duck; March 12, 2013 at 09:16 PM.
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Old March 13, 2013, 07:06 PM   #31
dakota.potts
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Having never fired one, I am very tempted to recommend a Makarov due to its size, relatively small round with a decent punch, affordability, and being able to fire even if they're fairly abused.
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Old March 13, 2013, 07:46 PM   #32
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One thing I don't like about the Makarov is that they usually have a pretty terrible trigger pull.
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Old March 13, 2013, 08:17 PM   #33
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Canister of pepper spray.

Serious.
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Old March 13, 2013, 08:59 PM   #34
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Everyone talks about racking the slide.
If I was keeping a semi auto pistol for home defense around children it would be in a biometric safe.
If it were in a biometric safe it would be stored with a round in the chamber.
An HK P30-L would make a great gun for someone with small hands, which is why I have one in the first place, but it is not an inexpensive gun.
In the 12,000 rounds that have gone through my P30-L I have had only 1 faire to feed and that was due to a Glocked reload.
Yes clearance drills are important but so is reliability.

I also see no reason why not to go with a revolver for someone who does not want to do extensive training with a handgun.

Not everybody wants to spend time doing malfunction drills instead of learning basic shooting fundamentals.
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Old March 14, 2013, 01:18 AM   #35
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good HD options for a small-statured single mother?

I would never use a biometric safe. They seem great in theory. In practice, they're almost more likely to stall you in getting the one object that could save your life in the critical moment than they are to open up without issues. A quick google search will show you exactly why this type of safe is a bad idea.

If you insist on an electronic handgun box, get one with a combination. I'd recommend getting a mechanical combination lockbox instead, however. No batteries to die at the worst possible moment.
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Old March 15, 2013, 11:35 AM   #36
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Quote:
1. She's barely over five feet tall, and she's not very strong physically.

2. As a single mother of two, working full time, her training time would be limited.

3. Budget for the gun, ammo, and accessories would be rather limited. Probably $500 or less for initial purchase, and less expensive practice ammo would be preferred.

4. As alluded to already, young kids are in the house.
Of the 4 listed conditions, the one that always bothers me more than all the others put together is the admission or suspicion that training will be limited by time or budget.

And the rest of the details:

Quote:
I don't know if she would have the right mindset to use a deadly weapon or the dedication to become properly trained with one. And maybe the challenges that arise from keeping a gun in a house with kids around would outweigh the benefits for her.
In a HD scenario, if your choice of mindset or anything else prevents you from actually using the tool in your hand or nightstand, then the boogieman will have your weapon in his hand, and just maybe it's the only one on the scene, and it is now going from a really bad situation to way way worse.

My suggestion would be to harden the perimeter of her home to the highest degree possible. If her home, that is much easier than a rental, but even as a tenant, many landlords are agreeable that the safety of tenants is a good thing.

If the total budget to increase her safety, somehow, is say, $400, take maybe a third of that and install 1.) better locks on doors and windows, 2.) Motion detecting light fixtures, at front, back and garage doors, pointed out towards the exterior 3.) Become familiar with neighbors and their capabilities and intentions, good or bad. Learn who can be counted on for help when that scary bump-in-the-night occurs. 4.) Develop a plan for home security, regarding answering (or not) the doors and the phone, especially kids that always assume someone at the door is welcome. Keep a cell phone in hand with 911 in speed dial. Lastly, contact local law enforcement to see what response time can be expected, day and night, and be sure to ask them what the history is of your choice of neighborhoods. And if you find your neighborhood is bad for a single mom, figure out how to move to a better one.

A gun may be the worst choice for anyone scared or not trained to use it.
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Old March 16, 2013, 11:22 PM   #37
Ludwig Von Mises
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Got my mom, a vehemently anti-gun bleeding heart sinkhole of a liberal, a ruger LCR in 38spc. Never looked back. She now loves shooting, and packs all day. Still hates black rifles and hi cap mags though, next I'll get her a Colt LE or SP If this woman isn't the type for a swift wrist bend but light recoil like low power loads in a 38spc, i'd say point her toward a short barrelled 20 gauge.

Only reason I say short barreled is that I was in a quasi-HD situation, and had a 500 with the stock Slugster barrel on it, which I believe was 22 or 24 inches, and that was an absolute nightmare to wield, and I'm 6 ft 185, for 350 she can have a mossy 500 and an 18.5 smoothie barrel. Can't beat it. Even a Stevens or an Escort are gonna come to under 500 with some modifications and more than enough ammunition to familiarize and keep. Shotguns are great because she could realistically learn in 50 rounds or less. Not the case on a pistol.

Buuuut, she might not be able to wield a shotgun effectively, maybe except a .410, so I'd say Ruger LCR all day. And for a 9mm with next to no recoil and can fit small hands, Ruger P95.

Note: 60 years old, 5 foot 3, 110 lbs. She wanted a .45. Recoil is more in the persons preference as opposed to size. I had a girlfriend who was like 5'2" and 105, she loved my Sigma in 40 (worst kick like ever on an autoloader) and my male friend, 6 foot 5, 250-300 lbs, doesn't even like to shoot snubby .38's. If recoils that much of an issue, Sig Mosquito or Walther P22, its HD so it wont go through her walls and hit kids, small, easy to shoot, and extremely lethal in that close of proximity. A friend of mine, combat medic, iraq vet, only uses .22s for primary home defense. Just sayin. Recoil = Eye of beholder. My $0.02

Last edited by Ludwig Von Mises; March 16, 2013 at 11:32 PM.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:48 PM   #38
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I really hate to say it but never "count" on the police to show up. I've lived its two states. Both in town and in the country and have never seen a cop show up unless domestic violence is involved. Many of those where I live and my family have called them for burglars. Not one time have they showed up. You know what they say? Call back if there is an injury! The police are not there to protect you. The supreme court says it the polices job to just arrest criminals and not to protect you. I know, I know. Protect and sever. That's just words on the side of the car. Don't think I'm talking bad about cops because I'm not. I've known over 20 of them and most were good and honest. Most would even put their lives on the line for a complete stranger. The problem is if they're not told to go to you home how will them know to go there. In the county I live in today the people have voted year after year to decrease the sheriff's budget because they don't show up when they really need them to. Yet they seem to have all the time in the world to write speeding tickets.
If someone is not willing to devote the time to learn to defend them selves than their priorities are messed up. Especially if they have kids. It's your job to protect your children because they can't protect themselves.

Just my .02. Your experiences my very. I hope I don't offend anyone. Boomer
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Old March 20, 2013, 01:05 PM   #39
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The Hi-Point Carbine, as someone mentioned before, would be an excellent choice. They are: Lightweight, durable, can be purchased inexpensively, do not require a great deal of maintenance, and are very accurate. Since the are offered in popular pistol calibers up to .45 then plenty of stopping power available, and given the semi auto carbine design, a great combination. I trained my Daughter (she is also petite in stature) with it, with excellent results.

If you are going to advise her, go the extra mile and train her ! Then, you can feel confident she can handle herself in a defensive situation.
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Old March 29, 2013, 08:39 AM   #40
GaryH
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Even though I keep loaded autos for HD, revolvers would work as well. The thing about a revolver is with kids around I'd opt for a SA without a round in the chamber. The problem for a small person might be racking the slide on some pistols. That would have to be addressed.

A decent inexpensive 9mm (SD9VE) and some training and practice would be my suggestion. Shooting for center mass can be accomplished easily enough I think, but becoming proficient in the operation and handling of pistol would be where I'd spend the time practicing.....and making sure she has the ability to shoot someone if needed.
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Old March 29, 2013, 02:45 PM   #41
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My go to gun(s)

I have the Hi-Point 995TS carbine. They are running about $350 right now in California with the California Button installed. You can add the Hi-Point laser for about $60 and get two spare magazines for about $20. All in all, a good 9mm carbine fully equipped for under $500.

The only problem for me is the California Button which requires a tool to remove the magazine; not very good for quick defensive reloads but then again this is the nonsense of gun control in California.

I also have the Hi-Point C9 pistol (no California button required so reloads are quick). This 9mm pistol with three 8 round magazines cost me less than $200. The great thing about the C9 is it can use the 10 round magazines from the carbine. However, the 8 round pistol magazines are too short to use in the carbine.

I added an UpLuLa speed loader to make loading the magazines easier. The last time I was at the range with these two guns I spent less time loading magazines and more time burning up ammo. I was using the range supplied reloaded 9mm loads which seemed a bit soft; perhaps they were loading lighter powder charges to save on cost? Both guns worked fine with this range ammo and any other ammo I have fed them. They are easy to mount and easy to fire. The recoil of the carbine is very light. The pistol is a bit rougher but what do expect from a blowback design? I fire rifles left handed due to a bad shoulder and have no problems with the 995TS shooting left handed or right handed.

The only caveat is that you need to clean and oil these guns at least annually. I am putting my C9 Pistol through a long term 1,200 round torture test to see if the “1,200 rounds before cleaning” advice from the owner’s manual is okay. My findings after 500 rounds and a year and a half sitting in the safe without being touched is that if you keep the guns oiled they work flawlessly. If you let them get dry you will suffer misfeeds.

Go with the 995TS and C9 combination and you should have the bases covered. Get some basic training on their use and on legal self-defense usage of lethal force and put in some range time once a month so you can stay proficient with the arms.

Also, I STRONGLY recommending reading EVERYTHING on Pax’s website “Cornered Cat” at http://www.corneredcat.com/ as it is a GREAT guide for women planning on arming themselves. Guys, you should study every word on her site as well!
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Old March 30, 2013, 01:44 PM   #42
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I recommend a revolver in .38 special or .357 magnum, with a 4" barrel.

Here'a why:

The revolver is more reliable than the autoloader.

Even the most reliable autoloader can have a bullet related failure (failure to feed, failure to eject, hard primer, dud round).

And if she is not going to have the time to practice clearing a failure til it is instinctive and very fast, then the revolver is going to be more reliable.



Quote:
Question....For all the men who continue to recommend wheelguns for the fairer sex, what is YOUR go to gun for home/self defense?


The very reason this is my go to gun instead of one my autoloaders is because I know that I don't practice clearing drills near enough.

And I've experienced and seen way too many autoloaders choke when firing to feel comfortable staking my life on one.
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Old March 30, 2013, 02:40 PM   #43
Frank Ettin
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We've kind of come full circle from pax' post 6:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
...Revolvers are difficult to master for defensive use. If there's any question at all about her hand strength, that should immediately rule out a revolver because of the long, heavy DA trigger pull. (Lots of reasons not to use revolver in SA mode for self-defense -- safety and speed the most important of those.)...
Yes, revolvers are simple to use, but my experience teaching beginners confirms pax' observation. Women (and men) depending on hand strength and hand size can have great difficulty with the long, heavy trigger pull of many DA revolvers (and many DA semi-autos). With my short fingers, I can't handle a Smith & Wesson N frame well in DA.

Picking an appropriate handgun really should include: (1) an NRA Basic Handgun class; (2) handling and trying, under qualified supervision, a variety of handguns; and (3) finding which one and which types one can best manage.
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Old March 30, 2013, 02:56 PM   #44
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First line of defense should be a good DOG, especially one that will protect the kids, after that, a good can of pepper spray or MACE, possibly a taser. Once those are utilized, THEN a gun - if she is not going to practice much, a gun would not be a good choice for her in a stress-filled scenario where her minds is on her kids and not on stopping the threat. If she is truly going to get the training and practice time in, then she needs to get whatever she is comfortable with - and that will need to br HER decision, not what any of us say
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Old March 30, 2013, 03:11 PM   #45
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I really would not, I really could not

make a choice for someone else.

What out asking,

would you, could you in the dark,
would you, could you hit your mark.

I could go on but there is a point driven by some here.

Before giving advise, it would be wise to ask some quesitons.

If they are going to put it up and never look at it for 3 years, then any gun is a bad choice. It carries all the risk with little upside-most of us understand that during an emergency, there is little time to practise.

If she is interested enough and have funds enough, then they need to decide what feels most comfortable to her.

I saw a video of a girl trying out all the advise from her family. the pistol was off the mark, the shotgun scared her so badly after 1 shot, she couldn't keep shooting. The AR, was a 8 out of 10 and she loved it. But that was her.

If she really isn't into guns, then I too, would vote for mace and taser, and in that order.
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Old March 31, 2013, 08:30 PM   #46
Doc TH
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I can't be the only one here who does not believe that DA revolvers all have a heavy trigger pull. My wife does not have particularly strong hands (I have the jar-opening jobs) and she has no problem at all with my stock S&W 686+.
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Old March 31, 2013, 09:52 PM   #47
peacefulgary
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When the big bad wolf is kicking down her door, I don't think she will have any problem with the "heavy" 12 pound trigger.
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Old March 31, 2013, 10:33 PM   #48
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc TH
I can't be the only one here who does not believe that DA revolvers all have a heavy trigger pull....
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary
When the big bad wolf is kicking down her door, I don't think she will have any problem with the "heavy" 12 pound trigger.
How many beginners/women have you helped train? Based on having helped train 70 to 80 or so over the last three years, many do have trouble with the DA trigger on a revolver or DA semi-auto. They can generally do okay with Glocks.
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Old April 1, 2013, 12:20 AM   #49
peacefulgary
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Quote:
How many beginners/women have you helped train? Based on having helped train 70 to 80 or so over the last three years, many do have trouble with the DA trigger on a revolver or DA semi-auto. They can generally do okay with Glocks.
If they can't pull a 12 pound trigger on a revolver then I seriously doubt they will be able to quickly perform a failure drill on an autoloader.
And they will most likely have a problem with limpwristing their pistol.

Besides, even though it is certainly not ideal, they can always shoot the revolver single action.

I've trained quite few newbies, but I've never met one who couldn't shoot a revolver DA.
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Old April 1, 2013, 12:44 AM   #50
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary
If the can't pull a 12 pound trigger on a revolver then I seriously doubt they will be able to quickly perform a failure drill on an autoloader.
And they will most likely have a problem with limpwristing their pistol.

Besides, even though it is certainly not ideal, they can always shoot the revolver single action.

I've trained quite few newbies, but I've never met one who couldn't shoot a revolver DA.
Thanks for the response. But --
  1. As an NRA certified instructor for the last several years I've worked with a group putting on monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes. In that time, we've trained several hundred people, almost all of whom were complete beginners. Roughly 30% have been women.

  2. As part of our class students, after shooting the qualification with .22s have the opportunity to shoot a couple 9mm auto-loaders, a couple .40 S&W auto-loaders, a couple .45 ACP auto-loaders and revolvers in both .38 Sp/.357 Magnum and .44 Sp/.44 Magnum. We've never had anyone display "limp wristing" problems. We've had a number of students, both men and women, who had difficulty with the DA pulls on the DA revolvers (and also on the DA/SA semi-autos).

  3. As for using a DA revolver in SA mode, here's what pax (Kathy Jackson) wrote in post 6:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pax
    ...(Lots of reasons not to use revolver in SA mode for self-defense -- safety and speed the most important of those.)....
    Ms. Jackson is certainly a recognized expert in training women in defensive handgun use.

  4. Pressing a long, heavy trigger on a revolver and performing a failure drill on an auto-loader are completely different physical acts, and one's ability or inability to do one can not be considered predictive of one's ability or inability to do the other. There are revolvers whose triggers cause me difficulties, but I can do failure drills on an auto-loader just fine.

  5. The first order of business is to get the student to be able to shoot reliably and accurately. Failure drills come somewhat down on the list.
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