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Old March 12, 2013, 05:50 AM   #26
mr.t7024
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Sniper or infantry?

Get the Garand for what the others have said!Cliff
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Old March 12, 2013, 06:55 AM   #27
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Garands have clips, not magazines. Does the ban refer to magazines or "clips?"
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Old March 12, 2013, 07:09 AM   #28
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You know, once someone is convinced of something it is pretty hard to convince them otherwise. Especially when being right seems to me more important than knowing the truth.
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Old March 12, 2013, 07:16 AM   #29
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The GI spec on 150gr ball ammo is 2750fps +/- 40fps. NOT 2900fps!
Yup, youre right. I was discussing the .308 vs 7.62 thing in another thread, and had referenced the 30-06 in it, and in a hurry, grabbed the wrong number. My Lake City manual from July 1969 lists .30 M2 ball at 2740 +/- 30 for a 153 grain bullet @50000psi.

That said, the reason the 30-06 was in the discussion I was referring to, was the "pressure" thing that always gets beat to death with the .308/7.62. I think it the same vein, there is relevance here.

SAAMI lists pressure for the 30-06 at 60000psi (sound familiar) and, as I showed above, my LC manual lists it at 50000psi. Now, curiously, SAAMI lists the .308 at 62000psi, and LC the 7.62 at 50000psi. It looks like there is some confusion here when stating what the definition of psi "is". I wonder if Bill Clinton isnt involved here.

As I had pointed out in the other thread this was being discussed in, I had a conversation with Speer a few years back on another caliber and issue, and they told me that a bullet of equal or similar weight, driven at the same or similar pressures, should give the same basic velocity.

That appears to be holding out here, in both cases, and I found this looking into it a little deeper, and this fella seems to have the same thought, and seems to have done a little more in depth research ....

http://how-i-did-it.org/762vs308/chamber.html (30-06 is referenced here as well)

Now, after all that. If what Speer is saying is correct, and if in fact, GI 30-06 and commercial 30-06 of similar weights are really very similar pressure wise once you get the indicator correct, I really dont see a problem here.

Now, if you dont buy into all of that, and are just going to base it on velocity alone, I seriously doubt that they would design the M1's operating range with a margin of error in that was as narrow as 100fps, give or take.

Whatdaya think? Am I out there, or maybe not?
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Old March 12, 2013, 07:45 AM   #30
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Garands have clips, not magazines. Does the ban refer to magazines or "clips?"
I would say, in the case of the M1, and a couple of other bolt guns, the clip is basically a magazine, since it has to remain in the gun, for the gun to function properly. An M1 without a clip, is no different than a mag fed gun, without the mag.

The only difference between it and a rifle with a detachable mag is, how the clip/mag is "detached". The M1 generally does it automatically, the others have a button or lever. Maybe they are looking at the others like switchblades. Buttons and levers are bad, and in reality, if buttons are the determining criteria, the M1 is screwed there too.

Now a "clip" in use in most other guns, is a "stripper" clip, and does not remain in the gun when the guns "magazine" is loaded from it.

And just to muddle the waters, what would happen if you removed the mag release tab from an M1A (or any of the others for that matter), and only loaded 7 rounds by hand, or with strippers through the guide, would it now be legal? Mmmm, I think it is on AR's in Cali, isnt it?

The whole thing is foolishness, and we all know it. We allow people to "make the rules", who have no idea as to what they are talking about, when it comes to what they are trying to regulate, and..... Oh, wait, never mind. They know exactly what they are doing. Its those of us who vote them in, and then dont run them out on a rail when they pull this crap, who are the dummies.
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Old March 12, 2013, 07:56 AM   #31
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Not disagreeing with you on those points but, as others who live in NY and have called the Safe Act hotline have said, the Garand is considered legal as long as it only is loaded with 7 rounds just like I said in the beginning. I never claimed it made any sense but then none of these kinds of bans make any sense to me and I am sure not to you either. Like you said, people who have no clue what they are talking about are making the laws so were all screwed if we don't run em out of there.
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Old March 12, 2013, 08:02 AM   #32
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Do both, get a M1C or M1D.
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Old March 14, 2013, 12:46 PM   #33
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Quote:
Now, after all that. If what Speer is saying is correct, and if in fact, GI 30-06 and commercial 30-06 of similar weights are really very similar pressure wise once you get the indicator correct, I really dont see a problem here.

Now, if you dont buy into all of that, and are just going to base it on velocity alone, I seriously doubt that they would design the M1's operating range with a margin of error in that was as narrow as 100fps, give or take.

Whatdaya think?
I think you are missing something.

First off, modern computer tech allow for a much more precise pressure measurement than the old copper crusher measurement system. In fact, some loads that were measured as "safe" under the old systems are now considered over pressure using modern measurements.

Another thing is that the SAAMI specs are for commercial .30-06 ammo, not the GI ball. Yes, similar bullets at similar speeds will have similar pressures, but the SAAMI commercial ammo loaded to 2900+fps is NOT the same as the GI ball loaded to 2750fps. 50k pressure for GI ammo, 60K for faster commercial stuff sounds right to me.

Also, the same situation exists with the 7.62NATO/.308 Win. Commercial ammo is hotter, and loaded to higher pressures. Remember that the 7.62NATO was loaded to duplicate the GI .30-06 loading for velocity.

With the Garand, its not 100fps+/- that makes the difference, it is the pressure curve (pressure/time) and specifically gas port pressure. The rifle will work over a reasonable range of pressure & velocity combinations, BUT some of them will work the action more violently than intended, due to higher gas port pressure at the critical moment. Overall load pressure might be within allowable specs, but if the pressure at the port, at the critical time is too high, its hard on the gun.

Also remember that the Garand was designed to run on GI ammo, something with a specific set of specifications. The fact that it can operate a bit outside this range is nice, but was not something intended for in the design.

Think of it a little like a car engine (not a perfect analogy, but close). This engine is made to run on 87 octane gas. You can run it on 100 octane, for a while, but things are going to go wrong at a higher rate than when you run it on what it was made for. And if you put 150 octane in it, bad things are going to happen pretty quickly.
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Old March 18, 2013, 11:37 AM   #34
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The reason you should not use commerical ammo in a Garand without an adjustable gas plug is becasue the military powder burned faster, creating less pressure, and a shorter explosion. The commercial powder in todays cartriges uses slower burning powder, creating high pressures, and in some instances, the burning of powder almost half way up the barrel. This can cause an ossilation of pressure, that really screws with the op rod gas system. Of course, this is identical round to round, so it does not affect accuracy, but it can seriously damage the op rod.

And I have checked, a clip IS NOT considered a magazine, because it is ejected automatically when it is empty, it is fully inserted into the firearm, and it does not contain a spring.

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Old March 18, 2013, 12:13 PM   #35
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I still dont buy that a 10000 psi difference between GI and commercial only offers a 100-150 fps gain. I think it would be more along the lines of something like 550 fps, which isnt what you see with the numbers given.

I think the link above sums thing up about as close as we're going to get, without someone actually doing some comparison testing on all, all on the same equipment.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
The reason you should not use commerical ammo in a Garand without an adjustable gas plug is becasue the military powder burned faster, creating less pressure, and a shorter explosion. The commercial powder in todays cartriges uses slower burning powder, creating high pressures, and in some instances, the burning of powder almost half way up the barrel. This can cause an ossilation of pressure, that really screws with the op rod gas system. Of course, this is identical round to round, so it does not affect accuracy, but it can seriously damage the op rod.
The arsenals and other military shops have used several makes and types of powders that are identical to canistered stuff civilian ammo makers used for both the .30-06 and 7.62 NATO rounds. To say nothing of the many thousands of rounds of commercial match ammo loaded on the same machines with the same commercially availabe components producing the same peak pressures as military ammo that was used in both M1 and M14/M1A rifles without any problems whatsoever. Especially the popular '50's and '60's Western Cartridge Company .30-06 match ammo with 180-gr. bullets seated in two different OAL's; long for single round loading and standard for clip fed ammo in rapid fire. While some commercial powders are slower than what military ammo uses, their peak pressures in the commercial ammo is no different than it was years earlier with faster powder. SAAMI's specs have not changed. And much commercial .308 Win. ammo's loaded today with the same powder as it was years ago and it's totally safe in 7.62 M1 and M14/M1A rifles. The military marksmanship teams handloaded many thousands of rounds of ammo with commercial powders (cases, bullets and primers, too) using the same charge weights as the arsenals did with the powder they bought from commercial companies. Their rifles did not have adjustable gas plugs. But the gas port in 7.62 NATO Garands was larger than the ones in .30-6 barrels; less port pressure from smaller powder charges.

Most rifle powder's not all consumed by burning until the last kernel's well down the barrel. Don't know if anybody's every measured it; it happens. With the M14's gas port about half the distance back from its muzzle than the M1's gas port is, there is no difference in powder residue in the gas systems of both.

Quote:
And I have checked, a clip IS NOT considered a magazine, because it is ejected automatically when it is empty, it is fully inserted into the firearm, and it does not contain a spring.
Some clips have springs that hold the rounds in them but do not feed the ammo for loading; original Mauser, M1903 and M14 five-round ones as well as larger capacity ones for the 5.56 NATO rounds and the thousands of commercial ones used in bolt action box magazine repeating match rifles such as the Win. 70 and Rem 40XC having clip guides in their receiver bridges. None of these clips are fully inserted into the firearm's magazine; their bottom's about 1/8th inch clear of the magazine when its charged with live ammo.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:30 PM   #37
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The M1 Garand can be pretty accurate as well. I have an average looking (metal and wood worn but not abused, nothing spectacular) Service Grade that shoots my best handload in 7/8" groups of five shots. That is better than some hunting rifles I have had.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:30 PM   #38
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AK103K, there's not a 10,000 psi difference between commercial and military ammo. It's about a 2,000 psi difference between averages for MIL SPEC and SAAMI standards.

There's typically at least a 4,000 psi spread across a given lot of ammo's peak pressure anyway; both 7.62 NATO and .30-06 ammo types. Even with that much spread in pressure, a muzzle velocity spread is often less than 30 to 40 fps for each one.

For testing with the same equipment, check out testing methods, pressure and velocity for both CUP and PSI systems in the following:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/206.pdf
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:55 PM   #39
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44AMP, your comments:
Quote:
Another thing is that the SAAMI specs are for commercial .30-06 ammo, not the GI ball. Yes, similar bullets at similar speeds will have similar pressures, but the SAAMI commercial ammo loaded to 2900+fps is NOT the same as the GI ball loaded to 2750fps. 50k pressure for GI ammo, 60K for faster commercial stuff sounds right to me.
...are not valid. Peak pressure in CUP system methods is 50,000 for MIL SPEC .30-06 ammo as well as SAAMI spec'd commercial ammo. In the other system for measuring pressre, PSI, the numbers for only commercial ammo's spec'd; 60,000 PSI. There is no MIL SPEC for .30-06 military ammo that I know of.

Military small arms ammo's chronographed at 26 yards from the muzzle. Commercial SAAMI spec'd systems chronograph screens are set 5 yards downrange. There'll be a difference with the same barrel/ammo combination at those ranges to the screens used. And the military M2 ball ammo with 150 grain bullet was spec'd at 2850 fps, not 2750 fps, at 78 feet. Only about 50 fps faster than the 7.62 NATO bullet's velocity spec.

I think I've cautioned you before about getting these two systems mixed up and perpetuation of problems that causes.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:55 PM   #40
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AK103K, there's not a 10,000 psi difference between commercial and military ammo.
'Bart, thats what I was getting at. There are a lot of other people though, who believe the that there is. Im in your court, believing there is really little or no difference.

I have still yet to find any data showing a comparison between military and commercial ammo that was actually done on the same equipment, using the same method. The SAAMI page you referenced is in the link I posted above, and only deals with commercial ammo. If they also ran 7.52x51, or .30 M2 ball, or any of the other military rounds through their equipment, I missed it.

Since all the claims Ive seen state there is no direct conversion or equality of the different methods, whats needed to end the debate, is a straight up comparison of all of them, on the same equipment, using the same method. Until then, everything else is just speculation, no matter how compelling the argument.
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Old March 18, 2013, 01:56 PM   #41
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On a semi-related note, I'm seriously considering purchasing a CMP Garand this summer.

Understand about the commercial ammo, got it, bad news. Don't do it.

So my question is, aside from the surplus market, and reloading, is there anyway to aquire ammo for the Garand that is safe to shoot?
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Old March 18, 2013, 02:12 PM   #42
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AK103K, I've shot the same .308 Win. barrel and .30-06 barrel with both 7.62/.308 ammo in one and .30-06 M2 ball/commercial-150's in the other.

The .308 Win. barrel showed a 25 fps average velocity difference between Federal Match and M852 match with Sierra 168's in each; the M852 was the fastest. Had I used two other lots of each type, the numbers may well have been reversed.

As for the .30-06 barrel, the commercial 150's were about 75 fps faster than the military M2 rounds but their bullets were a few ten-thousandths larger in diameter. Again, these number would probably reverse with different lots of ammo.

I've no idea what the pressure difference was between all this stuff, but a 25 to 50 fps spread across several barrels with a given ammo type and lot will also show that much spread.

MIL SPECs for velocity with a given ammo type's quite a bit. Their match ammo's got a +/- 30 fps average range, service ammo's a lot more. So the lot to lot difference in it will often show a 100 fps spread.

Using SAAMI's tables is probably the best way to compare the .30-06 rounds as peak pressure in both military and commercial versions are the same; 50,000 CUP. MIL SPEC test barrels have the same bore and groove dimensions as SAAMI.
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Old March 18, 2013, 02:23 PM   #43
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SPEMack618 asks:
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So my question is, aside from the surplus market, and reloading, is there anyway to aquire ammo for the Garand that is safe to shoot?
Yes. Buy commercial match ammo from Federal or Black Hills. There may be other companies making it for Garands.

You could also ask companies what ammo the make that's safe for Garands. Several do.
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Old March 18, 2013, 02:36 PM   #44
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Bart,

Thank you. My reloading operation is small at best and I was worried about the surplus market. Good info to have.

Can't wait for summer camp season to start.
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Old March 18, 2013, 04:14 PM   #45
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CMP sells surplus Greek ball ammo

It's about $115 shipped per 200 and includes a .30 ammo can. Order some while they still have it.
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