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Old March 17, 2013, 11:56 AM   #1
Sturmgewehre
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Glock 17 failure in slow motion

I posted a video a few weeks ago about limp wrist failures. Here's the original video.

Limp Wristing Glock Pistols - YouTube

There was some discussion on the forums as to what was actually happening during such failures. This prompted me to break out the 1000 frame per second slow motion camera to see what exactly does happen during a "limp wrist" malfunction.

Glock Limp Wrist Failure in Slow Motion - YouTube
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Old March 17, 2013, 01:01 PM   #2
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Great video!

I just goes to show you can induce a failure in anything...
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Old March 17, 2013, 05:05 PM   #3
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Next time you do one of those, do me a favor. Dont let your arm move with the gun and see if it still happens.

My contention all along has been that limp wristing has nothing to do with the wrist at all, but with the arm moving rearwards with the gun, absorbing the energy necessary for the slide to cycle.

Your arm moves rearwards with the gun in every shot in that video.

Prove me wrong. I can take it.
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Old March 17, 2013, 05:52 PM   #4
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I can't cause it to happen unless I let the gun move relatively freely both upwards and backwards. I've seen limp wrist malfunctions happen with other shooters and it *looked* like the rearward movement was minimal but like you, I can't see how it can happen unless you allow the gun to move rearward.

I didn't coin the phrase "limp wrist", I only use it since everyone seems to know the phrase. Perhaps we should rename it limp arm malfunctions.
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:04 PM   #5
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LOL There ya go.
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:15 PM   #6
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Was the gun stock, with stock springs?
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:38 PM   #7
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Interesting video.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:06 PM   #8
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Good video and good explanation.
Quote:
Was the gun stock, with stock springs?
I don't know about his gun, but I can get my fully stock G20 to malfunction when shooting one-handed with my support hand. Especially when using very lightly loaded ammo.
Quote:
My contention all along has been that limp wristing has nothing to do with the wrist at all, but with the arm moving rearwards with the gun, absorbing the energy necessary for the slide to cycle.
It has to do with the frame not being sufficiently restrained/prevented from moving.

There are two ways the frame can move. It can move directly backwards and it can pivot. Either type of motion, if it is sufficient, will induce a malfunction.

That is, even if the frame doesn't move backward at all, if it pivots sufficiently, a malfunction can occur.

So the malfunction can be induced by letting the gun move backward too freely, by allowing it to pivot too freely, or by a combination of the two.

In some guns, the inertia (mass) of the frame provides sufficient restraint and the shooter is basically off the hook. In some, particularly guns with lighter frames, the shooter is required to do a good bit of the job of restraining the frame if the gun is to function properly.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:20 PM   #9
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You should do a male/female comparison. When I worked for the police, the limp wrist problem was disproportionate towards women shooters. I wonder if their smaller hands grip differently. We never did anything sort of real analysis, but it happened a lot.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:22 PM   #10
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Informative video. Thank you for posting.
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:40 PM   #11
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It's about inertia. Several things can induce that problem. One is not holding the pistol tightly. Another is allowing the arm to come back with the gun. A too-light gun can also be a factor. If the gun is light (as a Glock is) the required inertia has to come from someplace else, like heavy arms or hands or muscle resistance. Sometimes a person firing a Glock .45 will experience malfunctions that he will not experience with a heavier Model 1911 type steel pistol.

As to twisting, a pistol will twist in the direction of the rifling twist. That can be resisted, but there is usually no point in doing so. Normal recoil is always around the center of gravity of the pistol/hand system. Recoil begins when the bullet begins to move, and is straight back in line with the barrel. But the CG of the pistol is below the line of the barrel, so the pistol tries to pivot around its CG, which means its butt goes down and its muzzle up.

It is obvious to me that the shooter is not gripping the pistol very tightly and/or has small, light hands and arms. Since the mass of the arms and hands is not easily increased, a tighter grip and "pushing" the pistol forward would probably solve the problem.

Jim
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Old March 17, 2013, 07:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
It has to do with the frame not being sufficiently restrained/prevented from moving.
I agree to a point. I believe that as long as the gun has mass behind it, mass that doesnt move with the gun under recoil, it will usually function without issue, even with "no grip" at all.

When Sturmgewehre first started posting his videos, I took my one of my box stock 17's out and tried to duplicate what he encountered. I had a very difficult time doing it, and was only able to get it to happen, when holding it sideways between my thumb and trigger finger, as he does in most of his videos. Even then, the failure rate was less then 30%, maybe 1 in 4 or 5, sometimes more.

When the gun was held more of less "normally", with the wrist behind the gun, even with absolutely no grip what so ever, and just the gun resting on the web of my hand and middle finger under the trigger guard, I fired 4 full mags, 68 rounds, without a single stoppage. The only thing keeping the gun from leaving my hand during recoil, was my finger in the trigger.

Its been my experience with the few people Ive taught to shoot over the years that had the issue, was as soon as I explained to them what I thought they were doing wrong, and they addressed it, the problem went away, and didnt return.

I know it happens to some people, I just think its a technique issue, more than a gun issue. If the person receives proper instruction right off, I doubt you'll even see it. Even if it should occur, a quick explanation should resolve it.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
I know it happens to some people, I just think its a technique issue, more than a gun issue. If the person receives proper instruction right off, I doubt you'll even see it. Even if it should occur, a quick explanation should resolve it.
I think that this is mostly correct, but the fact remains that allowing the gun to pivot too much (allowing too much muzzle rise) can have a similar effect to allowing the gun to move backwards too much.

It is definitely a technique issue, but that doesn't mean it's not a gun issue too. Some guns will cycle even with no restraint at all because the mass of the frame provides enough inertia/resistance to allow it to cycle while others have frames that are lighter and require that the shooter restrain the frame.

1. It's caused by the gun in the sense that the frame is light and the shooter must provide more resistance.

2. It's caused by poor technique in that even a gun with a light frame can be shot without malfunctions if the shooter applies the proper technique. This breaks down into two categories.
A. It's caused by allowing the gun to pivot too much which doesn't provide enough resistance to allow the slide to cycle independently of the frame.

B. It's caused by allowing the gun to move backward too much during recoil which doesn't provide enough resistance to allow the slide to cycle independently of the frame.
In my experience, it can be caused by any single issue, or any combination of those issues except that some guns simply can't be caused to jam due to poor technique because the weight of the frame is sufficient to allow proper cycling with no restraint provided at all.
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Old March 17, 2013, 08:51 PM   #14
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The most impressive thing about the video was not once did the muzzle of the gun face any direction but down range.
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Old March 17, 2013, 09:08 PM   #15
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Handguns are not the only victims of such malfunctions ! The Browning Shotgun ,long recoil type has always been noted for that with women and other light weights more prone to it. Many variables as has been mentioned . I can shoot my Benelli M1 90 one handed like a pistol without malfunction even though many claim it's impossible !
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