Ammo makers: playing both sides?

simonov jr · March 17, 2013, 03:10 PM

I recently saw an article detailing how the Dept. of Homeland security is buying 1.6 BILLION rounds of ammo.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-many-bullets/

Other Federal, state and municipal bureaus and agencies, including many from entities that substantially restrict the 2nd Amendment rights of their citizens, no doubt continue to buy up additional millions of rounds regularly. Meanwhile, supplies of everything from 9mm and .223 to .22 LR for civilian shooters seem to be everywhere curtailed such that prices are bordering those of precious metals.

I've also seen where Democratic mayors are threatening firearms manufacturers with a boycott if they fail to fall into line with anti-2nd Amendment objectives:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...-Manufacturers

Taking a page out of the books of the multiple small but principaled firearms and accessory makers who are refusing to sell to anti-gun governmental entities (with little but symbolic effect I think), why shouldn't the ammunition manufacturers like Federal, Remington and Winchester, most of whom stay in business primarily on the business and backs of the civilian shooting public (both firearms and ammo in most cases), be pressured to take a similar stand? Why should they continue to cynically sell to both sides of the issue, benefitting from large government contracts from state and municipal agencies in New York, Hawaii, Maryland, Illinois or California while selling their scraps at inflated prices (or permitting the same by their distributors) to the general public? Isn't the supply of dept.-approved training ammo as much or more of an achilles heel for the LEA's politicians with those jurisdictions rely on to keep crime down in order to stay in office as it is for we shooting civilians? It occurs to me that ammo manufacturers might start to act more responsibly if the portion of their business that comes from supplying anti-gun LEA's begins to threaten their core sales to the shooting public which has kept them in business for over 100 yrs. Is my thinking sound on this, and if so any idea how and where such an initiative might be started?

UtopiaTexasG19 · March 17, 2013, 03:56 PM

"why shouldn't the ammunition manufacturers like Federal, Remington and Winchester, most of whom stay in business primarily on the business and backs of the civilian shooting public..."

Are you shure that the civilian shooting public buys more rounds than all the Governments world wide? It would be interesting to see the figures.

**Spats McGee** · March 17, 2013, 04:13 PM

This is already under discussion in several threads. Please see here for one of our posts with some reliable information on it.

For discussion, see here and here.

**Spats McGee** · March 17, 2013, 06:53 PM

Following an explanatory PM from simonov jr, it appears that I jumped the gun on this one. Re-opened with my apologies for any inconvenience.

Fishing_Cabin · March 17, 2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

...why shouldn't the ammunition manufacturers like Federal, Remington and Winchester, most of whom stay in business primarily on the business and backs of the civilian shooting public (both firearms and ammo in most cases), be pressured to take a similar stand?

I don't really see it as the ammo companies are playing both sides. There is a rush on ammo and reloading supplies right now. I think it would be wise of them to make the most popular calibers and keep the product moving until things slow down a bit, which means selling to the public and the government. While I don't have any firm numbers on factory ammo sales volume to government v. public I would take a wild guess at it being about a 50/50 split. Im also confused by your statement of "most of whom stay in business primarily on the business and backs of the civilian shooting public" above, but below you mention the same companies "selling their scrap...to the general public."

Quote:

...Why should they continue to cynically sell to both sides of the issue, benefitting from large government contracts from state and municipal agencies in New York, Hawaii, Maryland, Illinois or California while selling their scraps at inflated prices (or permitting the same by their distributors) to the general public?...

The "large government contracts" are typically made to a certain, agreed to, specification, and while there are overruns at times, or ammo that is slightly off from spec, I would hardly call it "selling scrap" because while it may not meet the specifications for one particular contract, it may more meet the specs of other contracts, or other product lines they sell.

Fishing_Cabin · March 17, 2013, 10:09 PM

Just FYI. If you would like to know what one production line would cost.

http://www.caina-longbranch.com/entireproductionline

Quote:

Originally Posted by caina-longbranch.com

Circa 1950-1970's (refurbished) & new or near new machinery for cartridge & projectile production and assembly and packaging of small arms cartridges

We have an entire handgun ammunition production line which includes not only the assembly and packaging of complete ammunition from components but also for the production of handgun projectiles and cartridge cases as well. This provides the potential new owner complete independence of production which, beyond the offer, is attractive in itself. Pictures (31) of the entire line are available upon request or can be e-mailed if you wish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caina-longbranch.com

Cost A for the above production line machinery, which includes packing in sea containers on our dock including blocking and bracing is 2,900,000.00 Euros.

Keep in mind, as the add states, this is 1950's-1970's era equipment.

Uncle Buck · March 18, 2013, 08:20 AM

Fishing Cabin: Nice find, I wish I could afford it. Add to the cost equation transportation, set-up (On a prepared site), raw materials for production, licenses to produce the ammo and you haven't got much left over for the employees. I do not see any of the local gun clubs setting up this line for their members anytime soon.

Sierra Bullets, Missouri Bullets and Starline Brass are running production as much as they can. Demand has not crept up like other industries, it has jumped in a way that no one could have anticipated.

These three companies only manufacture components, they do not assemble the entire cartridge. Figure in shipping times to the factory that is assembling the components and you can see where delays happen.

Mustang1 · March 19, 2013, 02:01 AM

During one of my many trips to walmart in search of ammo I happened upon a situation other than a empty shelf. I have been in the market for some time now for .223 ammo which most of you know is almost impossible to find. What I found was federal ammo newer versions of 223 called Fusion. I bought 2 boxes of it because that was all the 223 they had. The stuff was 22 dollars for a box of twenty( I know, a rip off) but times are hard and I want to shoot. The first box I tried I get a fail to fire from one. Now keep in mind Fusion boasts of Precise and stringent making of this bullet. I thought for over 1 dollar a round I am going to contact federal and give them my two cents worth of thought. Well I have to tell you guys that for a spokesman for federal, this guy was a moron. He tells me that this particular bullet was made mainly for AK's and AR's but it is still a 223 shell. I told the guy that I had been loyal federal guy for a long time and do to the EXTREME lack of bullets on the market I didn't have much of a choice and for the money these should be performing better than that. Well he really gave me the " didn't really care" attitude and I had to come right out and ask if they would do something for me. First he tells me that he couldn't send me any bullets because and I quote " we don't have any" I said your a manufacturer and you don't have any? Then I asked if he could compensate me some other way, he finally after saying that about four times and squezing he's nuts off he finally said he would send me a 10 dollar check ( doesn't even cover the one box) Now I am not the kind of guy who goes around taking advantage of manufacturers but I thought this guy was a complete ass. By the way, I am using these shells in a Savage Axis which up to this point has fired anything I've put in it. So guys, do as you will with this info but I made me less apt to use federal. Anyone have any similar experiences with these manufacturers in these tough times? I've heard of individuals in the past that voice there concerns to manufacturers getting sent ammo I GUESS THOSE DAYS ARE GONE.

March 17, 2013, 03:10 PM	#1
simonov jr Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2000 Posts: 398	Ammo makers: playing both sides? I recently saw an article detailing how the Dept. of Homeland security is buying 1.6 BILLION rounds of ammo. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-many-bullets/ Other Federal, state and municipal bureaus and agencies, including many from entities that substantially restrict the 2nd Amendment rights of their citizens, no doubt continue to buy up additional millions of rounds regularly. Meanwhile, supplies of everything from 9mm and .223 to .22 LR for civilian shooters seem to be everywhere curtailed such that prices are bordering those of precious metals. I've also seen where Democratic mayors are threatening firearms manufacturers with a boycott if they fail to fall into line with anti-2nd Amendment objectives: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...-Manufacturers Taking a page out of the books of the multiple small but principaled firearms and accessory makers who are refusing to sell to anti-gun governmental entities (with little but symbolic effect I think), why shouldn't the ammunition manufacturers like Federal, Remington and Winchester, most of whom stay in business primarily on the business and backs of the civilian shooting public (both firearms and ammo in most cases), be pressured to take a similar stand? Why should they continue to cynically sell to both sides of the issue, benefitting from large government contracts from state and municipal agencies in New York, Hawaii, Maryland, Illinois or California while selling their scraps at inflated prices (or permitting the same by their distributors) to the general public? Isn't the supply of dept.-approved training ammo as much or more of an achilles heel for the LEA's politicians with those jurisdictions rely on to keep crime down in order to stay in office as it is for we shooting civilians? It occurs to me that ammo manufacturers might start to act more responsibly if the portion of their business that comes from supplying anti-gun LEA's begins to threaten their core sales to the shooting public which has kept them in business for over 100 yrs. Is my thinking sound on this, and if so any idea how and where such an initiative might be started?

March 17, 2013, 04:13 PM	#3
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,314	This is already under discussion in several threads. Please see here for one of our posts with some reliable information on it. For discussion, see here and here. __________________ A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills. If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman

March 17, 2013, 06:53 PM	#4
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,314	Following an explanatory PM from simonov jr, it appears that I jumped the gun on this one. Re-opened with my apologies for any inconvenience. __________________ A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills. If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman

March 18, 2013, 08:20 AM	#7
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,434	Fishing Cabin: Nice find, I wish I could afford it. Add to the cost equation transportation, set-up (On a prepared site), raw materials for production, licenses to produce the ammo and you haven't got much left over for the employees. I do not see any of the local gun clubs setting up this line for their members anytime soon. Sierra Bullets, Missouri Bullets and Starline Brass are running production as much as they can. Demand has not crept up like other industries, it has jumped in a way that no one could have anticipated. These three companies only manufacture components, they do not assemble the entire cartridge. Figure in shipping times to the factory that is assembling the components and you can see where delays happen. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

March 19, 2013, 02:01 AM	#8
Mustang1 Junior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Niagara Falls, New York Posts: 2	Federal ammunition During one of my many trips to walmart in search of ammo I happened upon a situation other than a empty shelf. I have been in the market for some time now for .223 ammo which most of you know is almost impossible to find. What I found was federal ammo newer versions of 223 called Fusion. I bought 2 boxes of it because that was all the 223 they had. The stuff was 22 dollars for a box of twenty( I know, a rip off) but times are hard and I want to shoot. The first box I tried I get a fail to fire from one. Now keep in mind Fusion boasts of Precise and stringent making of this bullet. I thought for over 1 dollar a round I am going to contact federal and give them my two cents worth of thought. Well I have to tell you guys that for a spokesman for federal, this guy was a moron. He tells me that this particular bullet was made mainly for AK's and AR's but it is still a 223 shell. I told the guy that I had been loyal federal guy for a long time and do to the EXTREME lack of bullets on the market I didn't have much of a choice and for the money these should be performing better than that. Well he really gave me the " didn't really care" attitude and I had to come right out and ask if they would do something for me. First he tells me that he couldn't send me any bullets because and I quote " we don't have any" I said your a manufacturer and you don't have any? Then I asked if he could compensate me some other way, he finally after saying that about four times and squezing he's nuts off he finally said he would send me a 10 dollar check ( doesn't even cover the one box) Now I am not the kind of guy who goes around taking advantage of manufacturers but I thought this guy was a complete ass. By the way, I am using these shells in a Savage Axis which up to this point has fired anything I've put in it. So guys, do as you will with this info but I made me less apt to use federal. Anyone have any similar experiences with these manufacturers in these tough times? I've heard of individuals in the past that voice there concerns to manufacturers getting sent ammo I GUESS THOSE DAYS ARE GONE.

March 17, 2013, 03:56 PM	#2
UtopiaTexasG19 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 699	"why shouldn't the ammunition manufacturers like Federal, Remington and Winchester, most of whom stay in business primarily on the business and backs of the civilian shooting public..." Are you shure that the civilian shooting public buys more rounds than all the Governments world wide? It would be interesting to see the figures.