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Old March 11, 2013, 11:26 PM   #26
kraigwy
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Quote:
Here's the current NRA Basic Pistol live fire requirement (if I can get it to format):
Guess the NRA wouldn't like my classes, I teach Self Defense classes, not shooting classes.

I didn't want to repost the whole quote, lets just say I'm "unconventional" when it comes to SD. I try to base my classes on reality, not target shooting.

Just for example, I don't like the idea loading one or two rounds in a revolver. The less you have to remember the better you'll preform. I've seen too many people click on empty chambers because they didn't get the cylinder lined up right. Then they worry about it the round is under the hammer instead of an empty spot.

90% or better is done with one hand, (both left and right). Seldom does one have both hand free.

One scenario: I have a large rag doll, about 2 1/2 ft tall. The lady holds the hand of the doll, them pulls it behind her (for protection) and engages the target.

Another is attached the shoulder strap to the target frame and the shooter pulls on the purse while she engages the target.

I set up a chair to represent the seat of a car, and she engages the target though what would be a car window (car jacking),

Setting in a chair and engaging the target as in a home invasion.

I could go on forever but you get the idea. Most of the shooting is done at 3 yards and under.

Regardless the student never knows the scenario until just before they shoot.

Of course several times during the night we go over the 4 basic firearms safety rules.

They are short classes, two hours per session but they are weekly sessions.

As I said, I'm a bit unconventional, it is a SD class after all, life is unconventional.
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Old March 12, 2013, 12:02 AM   #27
Frank Ettin
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I agree that we don't (shouldn't) need government setting training standards. On the other hand, I'm generally appalled at the atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship I routinely see at the range.

The responsible gun owner will on his own initiative seek out training and make a real effort to achieve some reasonable level of proficiency. If someone chooses not to, I for one am not going to congratulate him on that choice.
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Old March 12, 2013, 12:07 AM   #28
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I know the feeling. I took a CWP class with a fellow who didn't have a very good grasp of English (bienvenido a Miami). A lot of time was spent repeating everything to him in Spanish. When it was over he was given a booklet that explains all of the state laws pertaining to possession of a firearm and use of force. All of which was written in a language he does not understand.
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Old March 12, 2013, 05:28 AM   #29
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
Guess the NRA wouldn't like my classes, I teach Self Defense classes, not shooting classes.

I didn't want to repost the whole quote, lets just say I'm "unconventional" when it comes to SD. I try to base my classes on reality, not target shooting.
I have no issue with that, but I think you're missing the point. You are offering "Kraigwy's Self-Defense Method" classes, not the NRA Basic Pistol class. The NRA publishes the course book for each of its classes, and as certified instructors we agree that when we advertise a class as "the" NRA Basic Pistol (or "the" NRA ___ class) we will teach the class according to the NRA course handbook. If a state will accept something less than that or something other than that, fine -- for the state, but the instructor is not allowed to advertise something other than the NRA course as the NRA course, and he/she should not be awarding an NRA certificate of completion at the end of something that is not the NRA course.

My state requires, per state statute, the NRA Basic Pistol class as a prerequisite to getting a carry permit. I know there are instructors out there who don't teach the required class, and who don't follow the new protocol for live fire. That's wrong, and the bottom line is they are simultaneously breaking the law and cheating their students. The basic course for my state and for most states is not about self-defense, it's about handling a firearm with a bare modicum of safety. Anything beyond that is on the licensee.
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Old March 12, 2013, 06:59 AM   #30
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The CCW course I had to take in Colorado after moving there was mostly on Colorado law, and exercising proper judgment on when to use deadly force for self defense. It also explained the basics of gun handling which I was already familiar with, but I still learned something after several decades of all types of shooting.

However, I do agree that government should NOT mandate these types of requirements for RKBA. What happened to personal responsibility, judgment and getting training on your own? I rarely go to public ranges anymore, but the number of incidents is very, very minute, so why legislate for perception rather than reality.
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Old March 12, 2013, 07:33 AM   #31
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AB, I am not sure what the OP is talking about, to be honest with you.

I don't know of an NRA basic pistol cpl class.

I know that some states will accept completion of the NRA basic pistol class as proof of required handgun training for the permit; I know that some states will only give concealed carry instructor's licenses to people who have certificates from either the NRA, the military, or some Law Enforcement training organization.

But I can't tell, from what the OP has said in his three posts, if this was an NRA basic pistol course being taken for a certificate, in order to get his permit; or if this was a concealed carry class, being taught by a guy who also happened to be an NRA certified instructor.

Without that clarification, again, I don't know that the instructors were in the wrong.

If it was the NRA basic pistol course, being used in lieu, then you are correct.
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Old March 12, 2013, 08:07 AM   #32
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
I agree that we don't (shouldn't) need government setting training standards. On the other hand, I'm generally appalled at the atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship I routinely see at the range.
Indeed. Some ranges are great to avoid.

One might be appalled at the way some people dress, speak, write or eat, but having government mandate these matters doesn't seem likely to be effective. Similarly, the habits of care and safety are not the likely result of a state training course, but are more likely the result of individual care and healthy social pressure, just as they are in habits of dress, speech, writing and diet. Happily, we aren't compelled to associate with any specific range involuntarily or eat at restaurants with awful people and terrible food. That sphere of choice has the effect of demonstrating our approval and disapproval.

Law has its limits, and we can wish for people to be better without making law carry the entire burden.
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Old March 12, 2013, 10:48 AM   #33
dajowi
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In my state people are taking the CCW classes without firing a shot. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

However, people have the right to defend themselves and if they wish to do so using a firearm which they've had little or no practice with, that will be a huge problem for both the public and the shooter.
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Old March 12, 2013, 11:01 AM   #34
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I agree that mandatory training makes a right into a privilege, and introduces at least some degree of exclusivity.

I also try to remember that those classes are the beginning of training. A responsible person will need to practice the skills to which they are introduced in the classes. Are there irresponsible people with firearms? Sure, and with cars, and knives, and toxic chemicals, and flammable materials, and . . . .
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Old March 12, 2013, 01:00 PM   #35
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Quote:
In my state people are taking the CCW classes without firing a shot. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Most mandated CCW classes came about as compromises to speed up legislative approval for concealed carry. Like many political wrinkles, they weren't very well thought out, and the people who instituted them didn't know the criteria very well.

That's why we have mandated classes that are expensive, time-consuming, and useless. I've sat through a couple.

I've never seen data showing that states requiring such classes have fewer acts of negligence than those that don't.
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Old March 12, 2013, 01:08 PM   #36
zukiphile
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I am skeptical about the value of a state mandated CCW class as a training tool. We spend a lot more time trying to teach new drivers to drive safely and proficiently, but it takes a lot of us years not to take stupid risks in cars.

On the other hand, I believe such a class can explain to people their obligation to disclose during a traffic stop, their obligation to keep the item concealed, and when they are entitled to employ the item.

I would think that every such class has a majority who do not know the answers to these questions and who are looking for instruction on those points.
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Old March 12, 2013, 01:25 PM   #37
SPEMack618
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In GA, a snippet of laws related to CCW are printed on the back of the physical permit.

I wouldn't mind seeing a full sized, readable document listing all pertainent laws concerning CCW issued with each permit.

Doesn't necessarily constitute training, but it does provide needed information.
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Old March 12, 2013, 04:01 PM   #38
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn E. Meyer
That being said, I think you have a moral responsibility to try to be competent with a firearm, understand legalities and moral principles related to taking a life if you intend to use it in circumstances that might injure an innocent or overract to an incident.
While many of us that have owned and shot firearms for a long period of time would like to believe that all gun owners are like us, i.e. responsible, with high moral values, that ain't quite the way it is. While I'm not gonna argue whether or not training should be a requirement of a CWC license or that a license for CWC is necessary at all, I, like the OP, see a lot of new gun owners with a high number of their CWC license that scare me. I have for over twenty years helped teach Hunter Safety to new hunters. It is a mandatory requirement before one can buy a license to hunt......anything. Same as it is in many other states. Funny, for those twenty years and in the last several years of being active on internet gun forums, have I ever heard or read, one person complaining about this being required by "big Brother". In fact, many of the same folks that whine about a license for CWC are the same one that applaud Hunter Safety programs and many times snibble Hunter Safety courses are too easy. Sorry, but IMHO, the dangers to innocent folks is the same. Since Wisconsin legalized CWC a year and a half ago, the average student in our classes has changed. Since a state funded Hunter Safety class is useable for the required training requirement and it's about 5 times cheaper than the average CWC specific classes, we went from 10,11 and 12 year old kids and an occasional mom or dad to a classroom with more adults than young hunters. The young hunters were motivated to learn and wanted to be there because they were excited to be able to hunt. The adults there for the cheap way to their CWC permit just want it to be done. They show up for the first class and the last and then are angry cause you won't pass them. They generally do worse on the final exam and on field day than their adolescent counterparts. They figure none of the info we are trying to teach them is pertinent to them.........even tho 90% of what we teach is firearm safety and use. I have yet to graduate a young first time hunter that I was afraid to hunt next to in the field. I certainly can't say that for those adults seeking their CWC. Just sayin'.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; March 12, 2013 at 06:08 PM. Reason: remove profanity
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Old March 12, 2013, 06:07 PM   #39
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR
While many of us that have owned and shot firearms for a long period of time would like to believe that all gun owners are like us, i.e. responsible, with high moral values, that ain't quite the way it is. While I'm not gonna argue whether or not training should be a requirement of a CWC license or that a license for CWC is necessary at all, I, like the OP, see a lot of new gun owners with a high number of their CWC license that scare me....
I believe it was John Adams who said:
Quote:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
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Old March 12, 2013, 09:07 PM   #40
K_Mac
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Frank, like John Milton before him, Adams knew that freedom without a moral compass was a dangerous thing. Milton said this: None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but licence.

There are many things in our society that scare me. Idiots with concealed weapons is one of them. What frightens me more though is a government that will deny my right to live as a free man to protect me from idiots. We cannot legislate personal responsibility when it comes to firearms, automobiles, cell phones, cheeseburgers, or anything else. Government can define the legal consequences for irresponsible/unlawful use of a weapon within the confines of the 2A, and enforce those laws. Maybe it can even help provide opportunities for training. Beyond that I'm not sure it has much of a role...
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Old March 12, 2013, 09:47 PM   #41
Corrections Cop
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To the OP's defense the pistol class in MI is pretty easy (nothing wrong with that), I'm glad I have had extra training, throught the MDOC and the Police Academy. You still have to pass a BG test and get approval from the county gun board. Also Michigan is a "Shall Issue State".
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Old March 13, 2013, 12:50 PM   #42
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_Mac
...There are many things in our society that scare me. Idiots with concealed weapons is one of them. What frightens me more though is a government that will deny my right to live as a free man to protect me from idiots...
On the other hand, a great many people who vote are more scared of the idiot with a gun than of the government. We might all want to think about ways we might change that (at least a little).
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Old March 13, 2013, 11:34 PM   #43
Come and take it.
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If we consider todays "idiots" as horridly dangerous to carry concealed we would have been horrified at the firearms safety practices of our forefathers.
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Old March 14, 2013, 12:10 AM   #44
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Come and take it.
If we consider todays "idiots" as horridly dangerous to carry concealed we would have been horrified at the firearms safety practices of our forefathers.
That was then and this is now -- different social norms and different population density.
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Old March 14, 2013, 09:11 AM   #45
sourdough44
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The class or training to get a CCL is just a start. No matter how short or long the class is, it's your neck & wallet out there if you screw something up. A carrier really has to keep their mind about them as they go about daily carry.

Look at the FL non-res process. I thinks it's just a money maker for the State. If you screw something up the State isn't in trouble, the carrier may be though.
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Old March 14, 2013, 09:58 AM   #46
SPEMack618
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I would glady take my chance with untrained "idiots" who concealed carry than some other idiot voted into office attempting to tell me what level of training I "need" to excercise a Constitutional right.

That being said, I'm still pro- training. Make that pro- good training.

The pistol familiarization course you do at Ft. Jackson for your non-combat MOS doesn't qualify as good training, in my opinion.
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Old March 14, 2013, 10:18 AM   #47
Gaerek
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Quote:
I would glady take my chance with untrained "idiots" who concealed carry than some other idiot voted into office attempting to tell me what level of training I "need" to excercise a Constitutional right.
I don't think I could have said that better myself.

Training is good, but it's the responsibility of the gun owner to get the appropriate training. If someone does something dumb with a gun, whether they had training or not, it's on them.

Again, I live in AZ where MANY people don't have a permit, but carry anyway (Constitutional Carry). And you just don't see too many instances of people carrying a gun, and doing dumb things. Contrast that to someone who goes through the mandatory training, now has his card, and thinks, "Well, that's all I needed to carry, I'm good to go!" Not all people are like that, but I know there are some, and have met them.
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Old March 14, 2013, 12:42 PM   #48
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In Missouri, for a CCW permit you must qualify with both a Revolver and semi-auto at 7yrds shooting 70rds with each. You get "graded" on your last 20rds, 15 of them have to be in the sweet spot.

The Course instructor also posts each attendee on Facebook with their qualifying target. With permission of course.

You also complete the NRA Pistol Safety course, at least With the instructor I went with. Im not sure if that is standard with all courses in MO.

I also didn't start carrying till I completed a Basic Combat Pistol course.
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Old March 14, 2013, 12:49 PM   #49
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Heck, when I took the class, there were only 3 rules.

1. Don't shoot the instructor. That's a definite no-no.

2. Don't shoot a classmate. That's also extremely frowned upon.

3. Don't shoot yourself.

Looking back upon those who took the class, I seriously doubt they carry their weapon now. They probably carried it a few times then decided it was more trouble than it's worth.

One young fellow was showing me his 9mm Hipoint. He lamented that he thought he was getting a 45 and asked if I thought he could take it back. I told him I doubted it. I hope he's doing ok.

BTW, I strongly resent having to take a state mandated class in order to exercise a Constitutional guarantee. I don't know at which point we allowed ourselves to think this is government's business, but we erred.
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