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Old March 13, 2013, 09:08 AM   #26
JimDandy
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A person running away (unless armed) provides evidence that that fear is not immediate nor reasonable.
Weilding a knife is armed, yes?
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Old March 13, 2013, 09:27 AM   #27
Willie Sutton
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Use a gun to shoot a guy who is running away with a knife?

Uhh....


You're gonna go to jail with most juries sitting in judgement on that at your trial. As you should.


Willie


.
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Old March 13, 2013, 09:42 AM   #28
zincwarrior
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Quote:
A person running away (unless armed) provides evidence that that fear is not immediate nor reasonable.

Weilding a knife is armed, yes?
All other factors being equal what Willie said. If he's running away, with a knife, he is not an immediate threat. Now if he's circling to attack you from a different direction, thats different, and abviously the facts of each scenario are different.

But just because he has a knife doesn't mean you can waste him. He's no longer an immediate threat to you.
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Old March 13, 2013, 11:34 AM   #29
JimDandy
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Having read the posts on the linked website, we should also realize he wasn't actually running away- at least according to the thrid or fourthhand accounts of a supposed juror in the trial. In other words, I have no reason to accept all that was said as fact, but even less reason to not accept those as the facts of the case.

Turning is not running.

A knife inside of 21 feet is a significant threat.

Someone so off their rocker they take their shirt off in the rain, phsyically assault someone, leave, and return with a knife-has committed at least a couple felonies and is so off their rocker, I would suspect them of being a danger to anyone they passed, even if they did attempt to leave the scene.
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Old March 13, 2013, 11:47 AM   #30
Double Naught Spy
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All other factors being equal what Willie said. If he's running away, with a knife, he is not an immediate threat. Now if he's circling to attack you from a different direction, thats different, and abviously the facts of each scenario are different.
And how do you know the difference? How do you know that when he starts to run that it isn't the start of the circle of attack?

Generally speaking, you simply have to believe that your life or the life of another is still endangered and that your action is necessary for self defense.
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Old March 13, 2013, 11:53 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by JimDandy
Someone so off their rocker they take their shirt off in the rain, phsyically assault someone, leave, and return with a knife-has committed at least a couple felonies and is so off their rocker, I would suspect them of being a danger to anyone they passed, even if they did attempt to leave the scene.
But if they're leaving the scene, they're no longer a threat to anyone at the scene; suspecting that someone might be a danger to others in the future isn't a justification for shooting him.
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Old March 13, 2013, 11:56 AM   #32
JimDandy
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So if Law Enforcement were standing there instead of your or I, and been involved in exactly the same way, assaulted, threatened by a knife weilding assailant, and this assailant were leaving the scene they would not be justified in shooting the assailant?
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Old March 13, 2013, 12:03 PM   #33
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So if Law Enforcement were standing there instead of your or I, and been involved in exactly the same way, assaulted, threatened by a knife weilding assailant, and this assailant were leaving the scene they would not be justified in shooting the assailant?
Right or wrong, the police have different rules of engagement when it comes to fleeing suspects.
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Old March 13, 2013, 12:13 PM   #34
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDandy
Someone so off their rocker they take their shirt off in the rain, phsyically assault someone, leave, and return with a knife-has committed at least a couple felonies and is so off their rocker, I would suspect them of being a danger to anyone they passed, even if they did attempt to leave the scene.

But if they're leaving the scene, they're no longer a threat to anyone at the scene; suspecting that someone might be a danger to others in the future isn't a justification for shooting him.
Exactly.
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Old March 13, 2013, 12:39 PM   #35
JimDandy
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Right or wrong, the police have different rules of engagement when it comes to fleeing suspects.
The extent of those differences will vary from state to state.

Just poking around, I find Michigan apparently by statute allows citizens arrests, and provides guidelines for when deadly force may be used during those arrests.

In Washington we have this one competing with this one that could offer up much the same thing.
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Old March 13, 2013, 01:52 PM   #36
Gary L. Griffiths
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But if they're leaving the scene, they're no longer a threat to anyone at the scene; suspecting that someone might be a danger to others in the future isn't a justification for shooting him.
This logic is directly controverted by Tennessee V. Gardner which states that if someone uses deadly force or the threat of deadly force in the commission of a crime or in an escape attempt, the person is a danger to society, and law enforcement officers may use deadly force to stop him or her even if (s)he is no longer armed. True, this applies specifically to LEOs, but in many jurisdictions, under the law, citizens have the same powers of arrest as LEOs.
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Old March 13, 2013, 01:55 PM   #37
ScottRiqui
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but in many jurisdictions, under the law, citizens have the same powers of arrest as LEOs.
Powers of arrest, perhaps. But I would be very curious to know how common it really is for the citizens to have the exact same "use of force" guidelines as the police.
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Old March 13, 2013, 02:47 PM   #38
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The story should go a long ways to remind us of how even what appears to be an obvious "good shoot" can still land you in a legal nightmare.
This is where we differ. I do not see this as a black and white "good shoot". They were arguing and scuffling and it turned deadly. My opinion, for what it is worth is that the shooter escalated the situation by being "Rude" and possibly antagonizing the attacker. I do however believe it was a good shoot based on the available evidence, and with that level of investigation am surprised it ever went to trial. Sounds confusing? Did not mean for it too.
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Old March 13, 2013, 03:13 PM   #39
JimDandy
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According to "the full story" on the linked page, the shooter made a verbal comment- watch where you're going- and immediately proceeded on his way, while the shootee removed his shirt and chased down the shooter to continue the confrontation beyond an angry verbal exchange. After a 2-20 minute phsycial altercation, the shootee left screaming verbal threats. The shooter then tried to continue to leave the area, when he was again confronted by the shootee, who jabbed at him with a closed folding knife.

That's an awful lot of the shooter trying to leave to think the instigation and thus blame was a simple comment of Watch where you're going.
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