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Old April 16, 2012, 04:26 AM   #76
gyvel
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I would say that machine guns are necessary for the militia, but the whole militia thing never really worked out as intended, which complicates things.
By that mistaken piece of logic, it would follow that AR-15s, M1As, M1 Garands, M1 carbines, etc., are also necessary for the militia, but, in fact, are another "...thing that never really worked out as intended..."
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Old April 16, 2012, 07:35 AM   #77
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Ah, but crime does pay and it pays very well. There is considerable risk involved to be sure but to believe otherwise is foolish.

But if the basis of the right to own a machine gun is the second amendment, we're back to square one. Not everyone agrees what a militia is and too many people the militia has nothing to do with government.
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Old April 16, 2012, 07:44 AM   #78
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So BlueTrain what do you think?

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Are machine guns necessary?
Is their necessity relevant?
Do you favor greater restrictions on the private ownership of machine guns?

If yes, please state why. Be specific, how have you been harmed, what right of yours has been infringed, in what manner have you been violated by the private ownership of machine guns?
??

The supreme court has ruled that the 2nd amendment protects an individual right.

Interesting reading.

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The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a
firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content.../06/07-290.pdf
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Old April 16, 2012, 03:27 PM   #79
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Not everyone agrees what a militia is and too many people the militia has nothing to do with government.
The Law sez what it is:

Look up Title 10, section 311, United States Code.

Either we are a Nation Governed by Laws, or a Nation Governed by Men .... and I don't think we have men who up to the task at hand....... they seem to be content with piling on more laws, raterh than enforcing the ones we have.....

Quote:
Ah, but crime does pay and it pays very well.
I think we agree on this, Blue .... I just think we disagree on who gets paid well, over time....

Quote:
There is considerable risk involved to be sure but to believe otherwise is foolish.
To take the risk out of the risk/reward (or cost out of cost/benefit) ratio is to be disingenuous, I think.

Back OT ..... I think if you want a MG, go ahead and get one .... I just can't say as I think that would be a wise use of my limited resources. YMMV.
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Old April 18, 2012, 06:50 AM   #80
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I suspect my resources may even be more limited than yours.

But dispite all I have written, I wouldn't mind having a machine gun. A nice Madsen 6.5mm would probably be something no one else on the block would be likely to have but I doubt they are to be had in any condition, let alone in good condition. I do admit to having suggested that I liked Lewis guns in another thread but they are reputed to be a lot of trouble. If I had any sense, which I don't, a Browning in either 6.5mm or 7.92mm would be much more sensible and still be a little different.

As long as we're dreaming.

We disagree on another point, however. I have much more confidence in elected officials both Democrat and Republican than maybe most people here do. And you all really should spend some time in the militia, too.
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Old April 18, 2012, 08:08 AM   #81
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And you all really should spend some time in the militia, too.
I wish I could, but that require the ability to time travel: I'll turn 46 in a couple of years.

Since the age of 17 years and 3 months, I have been in the Army National Guard, the Army, or the "Unorganized Militia"......


The closest thing we have today to Militia (in the sense the Framers envisioned it) are volunteer Fire and Rescue and Sherrif's Auxillaries ...... I'm a volunteer FF/EMT...... that count?
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Old April 18, 2012, 09:35 AM   #82
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No, the closest thing we have is the national guard and I'm glad you served. Perpetual service is not necessary, however. Maybe we ought to have mandatory service in the national guard.

George Mason, writing a very long time ago, stressed that the militia absolutely be under government control. I keep wondering why he stressed that so much, given what the history of the colonies had been up to that point. He didn't want private armies. Yet some years later, there were in fact private militias that more or less amounted to hired guns for corporations. That was during times of violent labor problems. Since unions have pretty much been killed off for all practical purposes, there is probably little chance of things like that happening again (I hope).

As for myself, a few years after I got out of the regular army, I also served in the national guard. The armory was located at 2001 East Capital Street, Washington, DC.

I was hoping someone would come along and tell me about their Madsen.
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Old April 18, 2012, 01:21 PM   #83
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Just do it like in days of old where each citizen was required to keep a weapon according to their income. For instance, a farmer might be required to keep a shield and a spear, a squire a short sword, etc. to stay armed in case of invasion.
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Old April 19, 2012, 07:55 AM   #84
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The bottom line. Everyone should own a machine gun or two - they're fun for the whole family....friends too!
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Old April 19, 2012, 09:17 AM   #85
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When and where were people required to own weapons? And when did the requirement lapse?
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Old April 19, 2012, 04:38 PM   #86
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Any half-witted criminal who wants a machine gun to commit a crime will just make one for that purpose. No one is going to go out, get finger printed, photographed, wait 3 months, endure an FBI background check, pay the government $200, a transfer dealer $100+, set up a Trust or get a CLEO sigh-off, and pay a minimum of $3,500 just obtain a tool for stealing money.

Legal machine guns are not now nor ever were a threat to anyone. Prohibiting civilians from legally owning them is stupid, nanny-state paranoia and tyrant-like. Furthermore, the '86 machine gun ban means your government wants civilians to own only machine guns that are inferior, prone to breaking, worn out, less reliable and potentially more dangerous than modern made full-autos. Yeah, your government really cares about you!

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When and where were people required to own weapons?
Google Kennesaw Mountain Ga. Without the South, you'd be living in Eurarica.
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Old April 19, 2012, 09:07 PM   #87
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Near as I can tell, the NFA 34 was passed as an employment project for a bunch of T-men who suddenly found themselves with virtually nothing to do since the repeal of Prohibition. And, as a bonus, fell in line with the agenda of people who felt any means of getting any guns out of the hands of citizens was a good idea.

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if the laws have had their desired effect, perhaps all/any firearms should be treated as a "machinegun" to reduce crime
This was in part, the intent of those who drafted the act to begin with.

The original draft of the NFA 34 covered machine guns, short barrel arms (sawed off shotguns, rifles, and stocked pistols) and HANDGUNS!

Realizing that the could never get that through Congress, the act was re-written dropping the registration of handguns, and substuting "silencers" instead.

The Hughes amendment was intended to be a poison pill, to kill the FOPA, a bill badly needed to protect innocent gun owners, sportsmen and dealers from prosecution for innocent or inadvertant violations of the GCA 68 and other gun control laws, and to provide blanket protection for those traveling with guns through anti-gun areas on their way to other places where they could legally have those guns.

But it didn't work that way. Despite the addition of the Hughes Amendment, Pres Reagan signed the FOPA anyway. While this was a huge blow to legal full auto ownership in the US, there never were very many full auto owners, compared to the general gun owner population, and Reagan went for the "greatest good, for the greatest number". Perhaps, or even probably he shouldn't have, but it was done, and tis done, and there is nothing we cando about it, until, and unless we can get the law changed.

And, frankly, I don't see that happening. There is virtually no one alive today who can personally remember being able to go into a hardware store and buy a Tommygun over the counter. And those of us who can remember being able to add new (and newly discovered) guns to the legal civilian registry are getting fewer all the time.

With Hollywood brainwashing the public well, over the last 70+ years, ordinary (non NFA arm enthusiasts) truly believe that only govt agents and criminals can have machine guns.

While it may be our right, there is, and will be no public support forthcoming for even so small a step as opening the registry and going back to the pre May 1986 laws. And any effort to bring this about only serves to remind the people (and especially the antis) that there still is a small amount of legal civilian machine gun ownership in the US. Sadly, if this happens, I can only forsee us losing some of what we still have, like the fact that the $200 tax has never been adjusted since it went into effect.
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Old April 20, 2012, 09:15 PM   #88
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More than one government offical at the time stated that the Acts of '34 and '35 were particularly useful in getting guns out of the hands of Italians.

The same things were said about the Sullivan Law, only it was considered useful against Italians and Irish.
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Old April 21, 2012, 04:02 PM   #89
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"The Sullivan Law? It's okay, officer. We're married."
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Old April 26, 2012, 06:09 AM   #90
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Do you believe that machine guns are neccesary? Do you believe that they should be allowed to be purchased and owned privately?
Private ownership of machineguns without the current hurdles are absolutely necessary in order for this country to be consistent and in compliance with the 2nd Amendment.
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Old May 18, 2012, 11:35 PM   #91
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"The Sullivan Law? It's okay, officer. We're married."
I think you are confusing the Sullivan Act with the Mann Act.
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Old May 18, 2012, 11:55 PM   #92
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The Sullivan Law? It's okay, officer. We're married.
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I think you are confusing the Sullivan Act with the Mann Act.
Both illegal if you cross state lines without papers
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Old May 19, 2012, 04:22 AM   #93
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I don't see a problem with machine guns, most criminals would prefer other guns for crimes, handguns are often used in muggings and robberies, snipers use rifles with optical sights, etc. In what crime does a bad guy need a M60 or MP5?

And not to sound like a anti-gun person, but one thing that may have helped the '86 ban be put into place, IMO, was the fact the 2nd admendment was put in place long before automatic weapons were even heard of
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Old May 19, 2012, 06:18 AM   #94
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And not to sound like a anti-gun person, but one thing that may have helped the '86 ban be put into place, IMO, was the fact the 2nd admendment was put in place long before automatic weapons were even heard of
Similar arguments to this have been put forth in other threads about machine guns. I can only say that the 2nd Amendment was put in place long before cartridges were heard of as well.

You get into the whole can of worms about what did the founding fathers consider "arms." A musket? A pistol? A cannon? I believe it was unspecified for a reason.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:51 AM   #95
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In what crime does a bad guy need a M60 or MP5?
How about a drug war drive by?
There's the old western movie scenario where the guy who knows little about guns, and can't shoot very well, is given a shotgun. Think how much more productive it would have been to give him a machine gun.
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Old May 21, 2012, 06:34 AM   #96
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All right! The quote about the Sullivan act was from the movie "The Thin Man." It was spoken by Nora Charles when a policeman (Ward Bond, I think) found a pistol in their bedroom. He then asks her, "Haven't you ever heard of the Sullivan Act?"
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Old May 21, 2012, 09:32 AM   #97
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^^^^^^^^^^^

LOL! You know, I vaguely remember that line. There was a TCM "Thin Man" marathon shown about two months ago or so.
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Old May 22, 2012, 11:41 PM   #98
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First of all closed bolt guns are much more difficult to convert to full-auto than internet rumors would lead you to believe. Kitchen table conversions are really likely to blow up in your face and guaranteed to run away or jam up. Gangbangers are not running around with fully automatic weapons. They are running around with cheap weapons.

Crimes committed with illegal machine guns are extremely rare. Crimes committed with legal machine guns are even rarer.

Machine guns are expensive to buy and even more expensive to run. If you can't afford the $3200 for an M11/9, you certainly can't afford to shoot it much.
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Old March 12, 2013, 01:12 AM   #99
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A Big YES

YES.

I know this thread has been idle for a while but I feel like I want to say something.

Citizens should be allowed to own machineguns. The reason for this is because it is everyone's right to have the practical means to defend themselves, their friends and family and their country out of their own free will independent of any form of government or military leadership. This is one of the major hallmarks of a free society.

Banning machineguns and other forms of firearms is a sign of a government not trusting its own citizenry.
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Old March 12, 2013, 06:37 PM   #100
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If you've ever sat behind a .30 or .50 Browning and pulled the trigger, or emptied the drum on a 1928 Thompson, you understand why everyone should own a machine gun. Simply put, they are one hell of a lot of fun.
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