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Old February 28, 2013, 09:02 AM   #76
2ndsojourn
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^^^ Al, did you notice that statement #15 states that all applicants were "normal New Jersey citizens...."

Talk about false hope.
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:08 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris
... A State with about a 9 million population and only 700+ applications a year????
Can we say "chilling effect?"

(Though I thought it said 7,000+ applications, not 700+. . . . As compared to Arkansas, which has ~130,000 license holders, with a population of ~2 million. . . )
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:14 AM   #78
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Since the NJSP officer submitted a statement regarding applicants/approvals, can those applications be examined by opposing counsel (Gura & Co.) for validity, namely the 'normal New Jersey citizens...' ?
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:15 AM   #79
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Spats, it did say +7K... Over a period of years - 2000 to 2011! That's an average of 700 permits a year.
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:17 AM   #80
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Drat. I missed that part about "a year" in your post.
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Old February 28, 2013, 09:17 AM   #81
Willie Sutton
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Having started the process a few years ago before I left to go elsewhere.

Bearing in mind that I already had a FOID Card and had been thru the handgun purchase process several times, and at that time was actually employed by a private detective agency... I walked into the police station and had a talk with the chief. Bear in mind that this was in one of the more rural areas of NJ.

Told him I wanted to apply for a CCW.

He literally laughed at me out loud.

Then handed me the application, fingerprint card, mental health release form, and told me to fill them out.

I did so and returned them.

He then informed me that he was going to forward the package to the superior court with the recommendation that my application be rejected by the Judge, and added that it was *his* (Police Chiefs) policy that in order to be recommended to the Judge for approval, all applicants needed to have gone thru a PTC Approved firearms training course.

So... I (obviously) asked what that was and where I could take it.

I then was informed that the PTC is the Police Training Commission, and PTC Courses are offered at the POLICE ACADEMY only to full entrants into the entire police academy course. Which, in NJ, means that you need to have been hired as a candidate officer by a PD in order to enter the course.

When I pointed this Catch-22 out, he smiled and said that in his opinion if anyone was going to carry a gun like a cop, they needed to be trained as well as a cop. This was his discretionary decision, allowable under state statute, and NOTHING could be done about it.

This, BTW, was about a month before he was himself shot at by a bad guy at a traffic stop, without injury, whereupon the bad guy drove off and was never caught. Maybe the PTC Course ain't so good... or maybe it ought to include a bit more about giving chase to bad guys who shoot at cops...



"A police chief in Warren County exchanged gunfire Monday morning with the occupants of a car he had stopped to help. No injuries were reported. According to the Warren County prosecutor's office, Mansfield Township Police Chief Louis Esposito was on Valley Road at 7:25 a.m. when he came upon a white late-model Grand Prix with a darkened rear window and no license plate. The car was stopped in the middle of the road, facing west. Esposito, driving an unmarked car, turned on his grille lights and stopped to see if he could help whoever was in the car. Officials said that before Esposito got out of his car, a shot came from the passenger side of the Grand Prix."



He retired soon after.

So, with that said, I am not at all surprised at the low number of applications that people there actually submit. The entire process is hostile to the appplicant.


If the NJ Shooting Clubs wanted to make a statement, they would have arrange to have every single one of their members apply for a permit, so they could then demonstrate the 100% disapproval rate.



Willie

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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 28, 2013 at 09:45 AM.
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Old February 28, 2013, 04:27 PM   #82
2ndsojourn
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Come to think of it, there are a few hoops to jump through to get a permit here. First, you need local police approval. And like Willy said above, good luck with that. IF you make it through that, your application goes to a superior court judge, where they apply the subjective justifiable need criteria. Then, after that, IF you make it that far, I believe it's in the state police hands. That's three steps.

So, if the police Lt's statement (from the affidavit in the above transcript) is accurate, the local police and a judge has already signed off. I'm wary of the accuracy (whether intentional or not) of the "normal New Jersey citizens....".
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Old February 28, 2013, 04:36 PM   #83
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^^

If you read the letter from the State Police, all he means to say is that these statistics do not include retired police officers, who also need to obtain a permit in NJ. The "ordinary" excluded them, not othern categories of armed-professionals. As`was mooted before, most of those are armed guards driving cash trucks.

Read the letter carefully and you will see what is intended by the word "ordinary". It's not the same use that you or I would use.


The process that involves the local PD is if they will recommend for or against issuance, before they forward the application to the court. Even if they recommend against it, the application is still forwarded to the court for it's action. The Judge can issue one even if the local PD recommends against it, but it's unlikely. The NJSP merely act as a repositiory for the information, not as a grantor of permissions. The only person you really need to convince is the judge.


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Old February 28, 2013, 04:42 PM   #84
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Gotcha.
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Old February 28, 2013, 05:35 PM   #85
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Willie Sutton is absolutely correct. I too applied for a NJ carry permit and was also rejected for lack of justifiable need. When I applied they automatically assumed I was an armored car driver; there was also another guy there handing in papers who was an armored car driver and IIRC they pretty much told him his stuff was all in order. When I told the guy I wasn't he had a very puzzled look on his face and took it back to show some other guy who said I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting it.
It's quite clear the overwhelming majority of these 94% who get it are in fact armored car and other security personnel. If I were Gura, I'd follow up and point this out along with the fact the permits that were granted are restricted only to work. I'd like NJ to answer with how many permits are unrestricted (personal defense). They'll probably say they can't find the information.
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Old February 28, 2013, 05:55 PM   #86
Willie Sutton
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One item to note as well: NJ provides for a Permit to carry a handgun. It does not distinguish between open carry and concealed carry. Restrictions are generally added to each permit, stating for example that the permit is only valid whild carrying out uniformed duties as a guard, etc. Only in exceptional cases are unrestricted permists granted. It would be very useful for Gura to parse out the data from the NJSP to see some real statistics on actual issuances.

Here is the permit application:

http://www.njsp.org/info/pdf/firearms/sp-642.pdf


Note that the area provided for "reason for disapproval" has a box for "lack of justifiable need".


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 28, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
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Old March 1, 2013, 06:14 AM   #87
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Press, if it is anything like NYS you cannot check reasons for acquiring a CCW, only that there are X number of permits out there.
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Old March 1, 2013, 06:08 PM   #88
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That may be true, however, see this:
Investigation and approval. Each application shall in the first instance be submitted to the chief police officer of the municipality in which the applicant resides, or to the superintendent, (1) if the applicant is an employee of an armored car company, or (2) if there is no chief police officer in the municipality where the applicant resides, or (3) if the applicant does not reside in this State.

Armored car personnel don't apply the same way others do. There certainly aren't many non-NJ residents who have applied(myself excluded), and AFAIK there aren't many municipalities with no police chiefs. So they should be able to figure out how many went through the SP as opposed to local towns.
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Old March 2, 2013, 10:43 AM   #89
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For the legal eagles, I have 2 NJ cases from the 1920's that refute the state's(and Judge Aldisert's) claim that all forms of carry were under the carry permit in the 1922 and 1924 laws. Gura argued correctly that open carry didn't require the permit until 1966. The case State v. Angelo also indicated an individual right to carry arms even though NJ has never had a RKBA amendment in its constitution.
Sorry for the formatting.
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File Type: jpg State v. Cortese 2.jpg (274.3 KB, 9 views)
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File Type: pdf State v. Angelo.pdf (785.3 KB, 11 views)
File Type: pdf State v. Cortese 1.pdf (887.5 KB, 3 views)
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Old March 2, 2013, 10:44 AM   #90
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Last page of State v Cortese
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File Type: jpg State v. Cortese 3.jpg (222.7 KB, 12 views)
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Old March 2, 2013, 12:51 PM   #91
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Good find.

I'm sure Gura's aware of these but it couldn't hurt to drop him a note.
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Old March 2, 2013, 07:33 PM   #92
Willie Sutton
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^^ What he said, and pronto. Anyone have a channel?


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Old March 2, 2013, 10:22 PM   #93
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I sent an email to someone close to the case referring them to look here or MDShooters where this is posted. As long as he checks his email then he can get it to Gura. I guess for good measure I'll post this at CalGuns-I'm sure someone there may have a direct line.
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Old March 3, 2013, 10:27 AM   #94
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From NJAC:
....permit fee of $ 20.00 payable to the County Clerk where the permit is to be issued shall be
submitted to the chief police officer of the municipality in which the applicant resides, or the
Superintendent:
1. If there is no full time police department in the municipality where the applicant
resides; or
2. If the applicant is a non-resident of this St
ate or if the applicant is an employee of an
armored car company.

N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.5 Approval of application
The chief of police or the Superintendent, as the case may be, shall cause the applicant to
be thoroughly investigated. The investigation shall include, but not be limited to, ascertaining
that the applicant satisfies all of the requirements contained in this chapter for obtaining a permit
to purchase a handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card, that the applicant has or has
not demonstrated a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns as evidenced
by the application and accompanying materials, and that the applicant has or has not factually
demonstrated a justifiable need to carry a handgun. The chief of police or the Superintendent
shall approve or disapprove the application after completion of the investigation. If the
application is approved, by the chief of police or the Superintendent, as the case may be, it shall
be forwarded to the Superior Court of the county

where the applicant resides, or if a nonresident
or an employee of an armored car company, to a county where he or she intends to carry the
handgun, for presentation to a judge of the Superior Court


It looks like the application only goes through the NJSP if there's no local police or the applicant is an armored car/cash courier. No wonder most applicants that reach the NJSP get approved.

It also appears that once the local police disapprove an application, that's it. By the wording above, the application only goes to superior court after approval by local police.
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Old March 4, 2013, 01:19 PM   #95
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Gura's supplemental brief filed today.
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File Type: pdf Piszczatoski -Supplemental Brief Gura.pdf (137.4 KB, 57 views)
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Old March 4, 2013, 01:53 PM   #96
Willie Sutton
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Short and Sweet!

Thanks again for your service to the forum for posting this.


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Old March 4, 2013, 04:57 PM   #97
2ndsojourn
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Yes, thanks for the news. So when do we get our license to carry?
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Old March 4, 2013, 05:26 PM   #98
esqappellate
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One and one half years, after a favorable result in Kachalsky by the SCT.
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Old March 4, 2013, 05:36 PM   #99
press1280
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see also United States v. Carter, 669 F.3d 411, 419
(4th Cir. 2012) (intermediate burden unmet; “[w]ithout pointing to any
study, empirical data, or legislative findings, [government] merely
argued to the district court that the fit was a matter of common sense”).

We've heard this bit about "common sense regulations" all too much lately and NJ's supplemental basically said the same thing:We have no evidence, no studies, but it's just common sense so rule for us.
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Old April 18, 2013, 01:04 AM   #100
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So can anyone fill me in on what is going on in this case?
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