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Old March 2, 2013, 10:18 PM   #1
6.8
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9mm Subgun ammo

Anybody shoot this stuff out of a normal Pistol? Just wondering because that's the only 9mm ammo I can find. Also, they say its corrosive. How would I have to Clean the Gun? Thanks for any feedback
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Old March 3, 2013, 09:35 AM   #2
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What exactly do you have, and why are you calling it "Subgun" ammo? In general, if the seller actually tells you it's corrosive, you should believe it.
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Old March 3, 2013, 09:51 AM   #3
Yung.gunr
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Don't quote me on it....

But, if I understand correctly the subgun stuff is more powerful than most handguns are designed to handle. You might be able to get away with it, for a little while, but I wouldnt do it.
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Old March 3, 2013, 11:16 AM   #4
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Quote:
But, if I understand correctly the subgun stuff is more powerful than most handguns are designed to handle.
Correct. Most types of 70s and 80s SMG ammo are loaded well in excess of SAAMI and CIP standards and are essentially the predecessors of today's +P+ loads. The warnings and disclaimers are generally the same- possible cycling problems, voided warranties, premature wear to tougher pistols, and potentially catastrophic damage to less robust pistols, particularly older ones with alloy frames.

Based on what I've read in the gun press and various sources online, older 9mm SMG ammo can often be identified by the following features:
  • "L7A1", "L18A1", or "9MM CARB." (for 9mm Carbine) headstamps
  • Packaging labeled "FOR SUBMACHINE GUNS" or "FOR UZI"
  • Hirtenberger, Samson, or Israeli Military Industries (IMI) packaging
As a minor footnote, I've also encountered another peculiar type of older 9mm SMG ammo. It used an unusually long conical bullet that projected partially from the case and appeared to be plated rather than jacketed, similar to inexpensive .22LR bulk pack. It was packaged in little cardstock boxes with Spanish-language labeling that included the phrase "BALA BLINDATA". Story goes that this ammo was from an early 1980s Spanish military trial of subsonic SMG suppressor ammo, but the trial was terminated early and the ammo was dumped on the American commercial market- because it doesn't work. The person who had this ammo tried it out in several 9mm pistols, and none of them were able to cycle a full magazine without one or more jams or FTEs. I've found a few similar stories online and these results are apparently typical. Feel free to buy this stuff to collect, but don't buy it to shoot it.
Quote:
Also, they say its corrosive. How would I have to Clean the Gun?
The elite milsurp shooters prefer a proprietary and special gun-cleaning solvent known as "WSW", or Warm Soapy Water. This consists of hot tap water mixed with a smidgeon of the liquid dishwashing detergent of your preference. Some shooters like Windex, but I've found that WSW works fine. Soon after shooting, run a couple of soaked patches through the bore, followed by a dry patch or two, and wipe down the breech face and any frame and slide parts that have lots of residue on them. Dry thoroughly and then clean and oil as normal.

The only key is "soon"- the longer the corrosive salts sit on the metal, the higher the chances of corrosion occurring. It's OK to a few hours until you've driven home from the range or whatever; just don't let the pistol(s) sit for a matter of days or weeks before cleaning.
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Old March 3, 2013, 01:27 PM   #5
6.8
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Very informative, thank you. I remember the Hirtenberger stuff. Usually pretty good quality. Their 7.62 from 1980 looks great. I don't remember seeing any corrosive stuff before, that sends up a red flag.
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Old March 3, 2013, 02:34 PM   #6
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So pulling the bullets, dumping the powder and reloading would seem to be the best idea, but then you'd have to find out how hot the powder is and even then there's corrosivity you gotta worry about? I suppose it depends on if you think 19 cents a round is worth it, and man that deal is tempting... https://www.samcoglobal.com/Ammo-9mm-ball.html
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Old March 3, 2013, 06:56 PM   #7
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Ive shot a lot of SMG 9mm over the years, some was hot, and some was HOT.

One batch of Spanish 9mm...this stuff, just in case you ever come across some...



..... did this to my MAC in just under 2000 rounds....




The upper on the gun in the pic was the replacement, and went another 27+ years, and beau coup tens of thousands of rounds of standard and NATO 9mm, and is still running like a top.

When you fired that stuff in the MAC, the cyclic rate went up quite a bit and your cheek was soon sore after just a few mags from it resting on the arm of the stock. It was a hell of a ride when it was running though.


This stuff, some Egyptian 9mm SMG ammo, was hot, and more corrosive than anything else Ive ever seen. We shot a bunch of it on a warm and humid August day, and since we got home late, i didnt clean it right away, like I normally do, and figured Id let it go til morning. Bad move. The barrel, bolt, and inside of the tube, were all covered in a fuzzy layer of bright orange rust.

This is the stuff if you ever come across some. If you do, RUN. It appears to have been meant for the Egyptian "Port Said" copy of the Swedish M45 "Swedish K", and is packed 36 rounds to the box......

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Old March 3, 2013, 11:32 PM   #8
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That's the stuff


Caliber 9mm Ball (9x19) MK 2Z, SMC, FMJ ammunition. Mfg. P.O.F. in 70's. Brass cases, Corrosive, Berdan. 124 grs. Packed LOOSE 1250 rds per carton.

* NOTE: THIS AMMO IS FOR USE IN SUBMACHINE GUNS ONLY,
NOT FOR USE IN PISTOLS.
500 Rds. 18.9 Cents per Round.
$94.50 Quantity:

Loose 1250 Rds. Carton
$236.25 Quantity: Anybody think its worth a shot? I do have some stout guns to use. Smith 5906. Ruger p95. Etc...
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Old March 4, 2013, 02:00 AM   #9
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6.8, While I have used, and chronographed, quite a bit of warm ammo in 9MM pistols, revolvers and carbines, i.e., NATO, Israli IMI Carbine ball, Israli TZZ, +P, +P+, etc, I gotta admit that I would not use approx. 40 year old corrosive Middle Eastern, or otherwise, sub gun ammo in any of my guns, no matter how cheap it might be. I would wait until some decent quality non-corrosive ammo became available. I have used some of the Hirtenberger 9MM ball ammo. It was excellent, and non-corrosive...

Ps, I have not fired or chronographed any of the "2Z" ammo, but I have read several times over the years that it is the HOT stuff.
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Old March 4, 2013, 03:52 AM   #10
6.8
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That's good advice. I will probably wait. This 9mm ammo drought is brutal, anybody know of a place to order some? I'd even settle for some non corrosive subgun ammo
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Old March 4, 2013, 09:18 AM   #11
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The Spanish box shown actually says "For Pistols" on the label. In general, unless otherwise marked, 9x19 ammo is designed for both pistols and SMGs.
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Old March 4, 2013, 10:24 AM   #12
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I dont know what kind of pistol it was loaded for, Id guess the Stars, but I dont think Id shoot much of it in a pistol I cared about, considering what it did to my MAC. I know they arent the heaviest built, but they seem to do fine with NATO spec ammo.

Ive shot a bunch of it and similar SMG stuff in heavier made stamped SMG's (STEN, M45, MP40) and it never seemed to be a problem in those guns.

One problem with "surplus" is, you never really know its history. Was it stored right, was it a lot that was refused for some reason, age? Who knows.

Over the years, I can only remember having to send one lot of .308 back because they found out soon after they released it, that guns were blowing up because of it.
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