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Old February 14, 2013, 11:53 PM   #1
Newton24b
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targets and aiming points

here is a question, i was perusing the magazine rack and saw the latest recoil magazine target bundle. lots of stupid crap in it. hard to read the targets but the one that has me offed is

the one were they teach you to shoot at the genitals and hip bones of the target. since when has that been considered a frist line target?
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Old February 14, 2013, 11:58 PM   #2
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It isn't the genitals that you are targeting, it is the pelvic bone. A shot to the pelvis is almost instantaneously disabling, but it not a reliable threat stopper.

There are not many instances in which this knowledge is useful because it is never a primary target. However, if you do find yourself in a gun battle, any hit is better than no hit. A shot to the pelvis that anchors your assailant would allow you to escape more easily.
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:51 AM   #3
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If the target wears armor, then another target other than COM is advisable. The head can wobble, is small and might be a poor substitute. The hips, on the other hand, are pretty stable and offer a larger target than the head. A good hit on the pelvic bone can drop the BG and disable him.
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Old February 15, 2013, 11:27 AM   #4
sfmedic
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Correct

The old presidente or mozambique drills used to teach two to the chest and one to the head if they are still standing.

The problem with the head shot in the real world is that as stated the head is small and moving AND it isnt the best show stopper with a handgun.

The pelvic girdle shot gives you a much bigger target and its not moving around unless your opponent is a hawiian Hula girl.

I dont know why the magazine would say shoot at the genitals . damn that hurts thinking about it
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Old February 15, 2013, 11:46 PM   #5
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I can testify from personal experience that one 9mm round, COM to a subject wearing a vest, is a SERIOUS blow. It may be less than likely to kill. But it may certainly knock the wind out, render an arm temporarily useless and/or make the subject feel as if he's about to die. It would certainly give the shooter a "time to run away" advantage, or if the situation dictates, take more careful aim.


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Old February 17, 2013, 09:23 PM   #6
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or it may have no effect at all. With adrenaline and drugs on board there are people who do not realize they are shot, when not wearing body armor. When wearing armor they wouldn't realize they are shot either until after the action.

I would not rely on a handgun to end a fight with one shot in any situation, period.
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Old February 18, 2013, 09:49 AM   #7
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Or the guy may die from a bee sting.

The point is, my point at least, is that a gun blast, perhaps even a miss, creates a time space. During that time space, you can MOVE, seek cover and concealment, better firing angle, run away etc. The overall goal of any armed encounter is for YOU to become safe. The most ideal way is for you to not become in danger in the first place. Perhaps the "worst" way is for it to end with a dead guy on the ground, you standing over him, in the clear, with a smoking gun. Somewhere between those two extremes are several options.

Winning a gun battle is not about "paying back" the thug who had the nerve to accost you. It's about going home to your family.


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Old February 20, 2013, 09:40 PM   #8
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I agree with your point that survival is the goal and the rest is inconsequential, but that is not what you said. You stated that a 9mm round into a vest is A serious blow -- "But it may certainly knock the wind out, render an arm temporarily useless and/or make the subject feel as if he's about to die." That statement is wildly optimistic. There are vast number of examles of individuals, both armored and not, continuing to fight after being shot, not realizing they were injured. In other words that hit had zero affect on them.
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Old February 21, 2013, 04:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
...You stated that a 9mm round into a vest is A serious blow -- "But it may certainly knock the wind out, render an arm temporarily useless and/or make the subject feel as if he's about to die." That statement is wildly optimistic...
Optimistic or otherwise, that's a real life experience suffered by yours truly, Sgt Lumpy. Shot in the vest with a 9mm Beretta clone. Couldn't talk/yell for help, couldn't make my arm move to get to my radio/pistol, life flashing before my eyes thinking the guy would come back outside and shoot me in the head while I tried to crawl/roll away from danger.

All for a failure to appear warrant on a $70.55 traffic ticket.

No matter how many "crazed crack heads immune to gunfire" stories we can find, firing a gun - ANY gun - in the direction of someone buys you time. Even if that bullet isn't "optimal ballistics" or "Center of mass" or even if it's a miss. That's my optimistic opinion.


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Old February 22, 2013, 08:53 AM   #10
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Sgt,

Ditto on a 1000 fps 9mm, hitting you center chest! OUCH! A lot to be said for a trauma plate!

Attending a lecture by a noted wound surgeon Dr Martin Fackler (think that was his name?) He answered a question on a Police target, that showed an aiming point, one of them being the pelvic bone.

He seemed to think as the Pelvic bone is the biggest bone mass, on the body, a bullet would go right through it. No major shock value.

Real close, like 10ft! The nose! Now that is a good spot!
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Old February 22, 2013, 11:31 AM   #11
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My half brother was shot with a 9mm in the pelvis, he's 2 inches taller than me at 6'4 and is pretty muscle bound. It was while on duty, that round rocked him and he hit the ground. It was a 9mm FMJ. It didn't shatter or hit the actual bone thankfully. It made a miraculous "C" shape and exited from his back, when he was on the ground he fired on the 2 suspects taking out one as the other fled.

I don't know...I wouldn't aim there.

Center of mass.
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Old February 22, 2013, 03:08 PM   #12
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Im pretty sure - but i may be wrong

I hope this conversation is about where to go to AFTER you shoot center of mass and the target doesnt go down = as in a bad guy with body armor

you always go for center of mass first
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Old February 22, 2013, 03:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
sfmedic writes:
...I hope this conversation is about where to go to AFTER you shoot center of mass and the target doesnt go down...
I suggest "where to go" is anywhere. ie move your entire person, not just your aiming point. Preferably toward cover and concealment, and even better AWAY from the area. But whatever you do, MOVE. That's the whole point of my suggestions here. Think of ANY gun like it's a mini flash-bang grenade. Even if it doesn't hit, do optimal body cavity damage and all that ideal ballistic stuff, even if it's a miss, it's a big, disorienting, scary BOOM in the face of the target. That gives you time to move, re-assess, re-evaluate, run away, put more distance between you and the threat.

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Old February 22, 2013, 04:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Optimistic or otherwise, that's a real life experience suffered by yours truly, Sgt Lumpy. Shot in the vest with a 9mm Beretta clone. Couldn't talk/yell for help, couldn't make my arm move to get to my radio/pistol, life flashing before my eyes thinking the guy would come back outside and shoot me in the head while I tried to crawl/roll away from danger.

All for a failure to appear warrant on a $70.55 traffic ticket.

No matter how many "crazed crack heads immune to gunfire" stories we can find, firing a gun - ANY gun - in the direction of someone buys you time. Even if that bullet isn't "optimal ballistics" or "Center of mass" or even if it's a miss. That's my optimistic opinion.
I'm sorry you were shot, and glad that you survived it relatively uninjured. Your single experience, while a single data point, does not mirror what appears to stastitically occur when a person is shot with a handgun.

I agree with everything else you've said. Move, escape, re-eval, and re-engage if needed. I'm just cautioning from the thinking of "I put one in his chest, that should buy me some time." it may, but it sure as hell may not.
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Old February 22, 2013, 05:13 PM   #15
SgtLumpy
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...Your single experience, while a single data point, does not mirror what appears to stastitically occur when a person is shot with a handgun.

I agree with everything else you've said. Move, escape, re-eval, and re-engage if needed. I'm just cautioning from the thinking of "I put one in his chest, that should buy me some time." it may, but it sure as hell may not.
Of couse it "sure as hell may not". Again, lots of stories about people surviving GSWs, grenade blasts, car crashes etc and losing half their skull, multiple limbs etc. Essentially anything "sure as hell may not".

BUT, there aren't really statistics on "She fired and missed and that gained her a second and a half to move to safety". And even if there was, all I'm saying here is - When you shoot, that bullet goes somewhere. WhereEVER it goes, then get the heck away from there. Don't stand there and re-assess whether or not THAT shot eliminated the threat and try to guess if there's Kevlar or if the guy's on drugs or if you should do a pelvic, COM, head shot.

Make big noise - Move! That's my suggestion.


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Old February 22, 2013, 07:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
I hope this conversation is about where to go to AFTER you shoot center of mass and the target doesnt go down = as in a bad guy with body armor

you always go for center of mass first
That is the assumption that I was under. You aim to stop the threat as quickly as possible, that means center of mass. Only if that doesn't work should you intentionally target another part of the body. As a secondary target, the pelvic area is one of the best areas... But if the threat has a firearm my secondary target would be the head.
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Old February 22, 2013, 07:14 PM   #17
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I do not know about shots other than center mass if that shot can be taken. I feel it I ever had to pull a gun, I am going to try to terminate the threat for good.
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Old February 22, 2013, 08:48 PM   #18
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This goes back a year,maybe two...in one of the firearms magazines at B&N. There was an article by a trauma surgeon who worked with the local p.d.If I remember the point correctly,he was observing,as a physician, that the better miss of c.o.m. was the pelvic girdle-extremely painful and loss of mobility.I don't think he ever suggested the pelvis as an aim point.Wonder if this is related?
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Old February 23, 2013, 11:30 AM   #19
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Time on target, first you produce a pistol, because of a real threat!

Your pistol is leveled at this threat, single or multiple threats. You fire to protect your life! Now the important TIME ON TARGET! for instantance, two assailants, with knives, at seven yards.

Turning your back and moving away, not an option! You aim and fire, then move! Once your pistol is aimed, now the true Time on target starts.

With your pistol aimed, you can fire three (for instance) rounds at each of these people, and move. Possibly 3 to 4 seconds! From draw to first shot. You need to be shooting before you move, mayhap a couple of seconds, but fast noises never harmed anyone.
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Old February 26, 2013, 10:06 AM   #20
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Interesting conversation. COM is my goal if I am ever in this situation. I hope that this will stop the threat, yet understand that it may not. Being prepared for whatever happens next, whether that is running, hiding, fighting, or all three will determine the outcome. Having the training and ability to assess and act accordingly is a serious responsibility that cannot be taken too seriously IMO.

Quote:
I do not know about shots other than center mass if that shot can be taken. I feel it I ever had to pull a gun, I am going to try to terminate the threat for good.
Survival is the only goal in this situation. Stopping the threat "for good" is excellent internet machismo, but bad policy.
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Old February 26, 2013, 04:14 PM   #21
Erikbal
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Re: targets and aiming points

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtLumpy View Post
Optimistic or otherwise, that's a real life experience suffered by yours truly, Sgt Lumpy. Shot in the vest with a 9mm Beretta clone. Couldn't talk/yell for help, couldn't make my arm move to get to my radio/pistol, life flashing before my eyes thinking the guy would come back outside and shoot me in the head while I tried to crawl/roll away from danger.

All for a failure to appear warrant on a $70.55 traffic ticket.

No matter how many "crazed crack heads immune to gunfire" stories we can find, firing a gun - ANY gun - in the direction of someone buys you time. Even if that bullet isn't "optimal ballistics" or "Center of mass" or even if it's a miss. That's my optimistic opinion.


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Wow, that's scary. If it weren't for that vest it's very possible you may not be here to post on this forum! I am glad everything worked out ok! Did you end up with a big welt/bruise?

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Old February 28, 2013, 04:45 AM   #22
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Old posts...

The "where to aim" topic pops up often on gun & concealed carry forums.

I'd advise to aim "center mass" the largest deepest section of a human shape target. If, and I mean IF there is a chance the felon or bad guy does not go down(the threat stops), then I would advance to either a headshot or a lower torso/pelvic area shot.
Some untrained shooters or concealed carry license holders think the headshot is the best or first place to aim. I disagree. The human head is small & not very thick compared to the center mass of a torso.
Hollywood movies & cop shows are not training films.
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Old February 28, 2013, 07:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
It isn't the genitals that you are targeting, it is the pelvic bone. A shot to the pelvis is almost instantaneously disabling, but it not a reliable threat stopper.
Quote:
If the target wears armor, then another target other than COM is advisable. The head can wobble, is small and might be a poor substitute. The hips, on the other hand, are pretty stable and offer a larger target than the head. A good hit on the pelvic bone can drop the BG and disable him.
While a "good hit on the pelvic bone" might drop a bad guy, so might a good hit on the arm, shoulder, gut, thigh, head, or chest. People often fall down when shot.

Unless you are using a rifle or have a surgeons near 3-D understanding of anatomy, chances are that if you aim for the "pelvis" that you will not actually get a disabling shot. Like the gut shots supposedly Wyatt Earp claimed as a preferred location of impact for stopping people due to the pain it caused, pelvic region shots can be painful (as if shots elsewhere aren't?), but pistol calibers rarely, very rarely hit the exact structures necessary in the pelvis to cause the structural damage necessary to disable a person's locomotion. In fact, the largest bone of the pelvis, the ilium with its big, sail-like iliac blade, can be punctured without actually breaking or can have pieces broken off without actually causing a failure of the pelvic girdle.

On top of all that, the normal person really hasn't a clue as to where to aim on the outside of the clothing with a handgun in order hit a target inside of the body very well, especially one that is moving and not front facing.

Shooting at the pelvic region is a decent alternative target, but do not expect physical incapacitation of locomotion to occur like you would get with a shot that severs the spinal cord just because you shoot somebody in the pelvic region. The pelvic region is quite large and structurally capable of handing a lot of insult.
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Old March 1, 2013, 06:58 AM   #24
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If teaching a class, Police/Security/ or CCW, sitting a manikin, no arms or legs, on a table. Shows by pointing, and giving a guess, on where that round might go. As in what organs sit behind the impact point.

I say might, because from a pistol, bones cause deflection, or even where you aimed, the person moves, that shot has now changed.

Seems to me, just my opinion, that firing once, then pausing to see what happens now, is not too bright, and shooting multiple times at an aggressor, can sometimes produce no discernible result, that if, or when, you get in a shooting war with a single individual, your conflict is going to be yours, and yours alone.

Like the song says "What ever will be, will be"
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