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Old February 27, 2013, 05:53 AM   #1
SHE3PDOG
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Government ammo buy

So, after reading something similar in another blog and posting about this a couple times in some other threads, I figured I'd just throw this up with sources to quell some confusion about the DHS ammo buy recently.

Firstly, according to infowars.com the DHS has a contract for 1.4 billion rounds of ammo. Let me start by saying this is not true. The real excerpt from the synopsis states:

Quote:
“The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC), Glynco, Georgia anticipates awarding multiple award indefinite delivery and indefinite quantity (IDIQ) firm fixed price (FFP) contracts for commercial leaded training ammunition (CLTA) of various calibers for law enforcement officer firearms training courses at the following FLETC facilities Glynco, GA, Artesia, NM, Cheltenham, MD and Charleston, SC and to other Department of Homeland Security (DHS) agencies. The Government guarantees a minimum of 1,000 rounds per year on each resultant contract. Contracts will be for a base year and four (4) 12 month option periods,”
So, they (FLETC, of which DHS is the parent organization) haven't even bought the ammo yet. They have only pitched contracts to do so. These contracts have no definitive quantity, so it is pure speculation that they may actually be for 1.4 billion rounds. Also, they are for a period of time spanning 5 years (optional for contract). That smells like someone is trying to stretch connections just a little too far to me.

Let's pretend for a second that 1.4 billion is the real number and an ammo manufacturer might actually be able to meet their quota for the various calibers (.38, 9mm, .40s&w, .45acp, 5.56, and 7.62 according to the synopsis posted by infowars.com) desired by the DHS in a single year instantly (1.4 billion rounds divided by 5 years equals 280 million rounds a year).

280 million rounds a year is a lot of friggin' ammo, right? Wrong. The DHS has a little over 240k employees and of them, 130k tote around firearms. That comes out to a grand total of about 2150 per armed federal agent. Still think that's a lot? Well lets take a look at their training and testing regiment.

Now, unfortunately, the FLETC official training site does not list the amount of ammunition they use for their classes, but most of them run between 3-7 days (for new guys, there are courses a few months long) with what seems to be a full days worth of work in every day. If we were to compare this to a civilian class where 1000 rounds for a 4 day class is common place, we begin to see something form: reason.

If an employee went to train just twice a year, they would be running slim on ammo. Furthermore, this purchase is not inconsistent with the DHS contracts that we have seen in the past. Also, it is important to note that while FLETC is indeed a part of DHS, it does not only train DHS affiliates. It also trains state and local cops!

I'll let you draw your own conclusions, but I figured you all might like to know the facts.

Just a reminder, there is misinformation on all sides of a debate. Don't be a victim of assumption; research the facts for yourself.



Sources:
http://www.infowars.com/dhs-to-purch...ounds-of-ammo/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...rtage/1919321/

http://www.fletc.gov/training

http://www.dhs.gov/
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Old February 27, 2013, 02:13 PM   #2
SHE3PDOG
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I was thinking more about this today and decided to add onto it.

Many of you also know that the SSA (Social Security Administration) has bought 174k of hollow point ammunition. According to our good friends at infowars.com, that's enough to kill 174k Americans and hollow point rounds are not used for target practice.

Unlike the DHS/FLETC ammo purchase, this actually was for physical product (i.e. not a contract). Unfortunately, the argument that they will be used to quell riots and / or combat American citizens in a post economic collapse aftermath degrades very quickly upon finding out that the agency has 295 gun carrying agents.

Let's turn to the math corner again. 174,000 rounds divided by 295 agents equals about 590 rounds per agent. If you refer to my previous post, you see that this is a lot less than the amount of ammo to agent ratio I gave to the DHS.

Now for the argument that hollow points aren't used for target practice. The 295 agents that the SSA employs actually do make arrests: 589 arrests in 2011. When they are out and about, they are carrying hollow point ammunition just like the police force.

Also, after asking around a little, I discovered that both the DHS and SSA agents along with a few other federal agencies and police departments DO use hollow point ammunition for training and qualification. While it is not required to use hollow points by all agencies for target practice there is still a substantial amount of hollow points used in practice and qualification.

In addition to that, the FLETC facility uses hollow point ammunition for training and qualifications done there.



Sources:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/04/us/soc...curity-bullets

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1854121.html

http://ivn.us/2012/08/19/rand-paul-t...let-purchases/
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Old February 27, 2013, 05:17 PM   #3
Tom Servo
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Thanks, Shep. The misinformation out there is making lots of folks nervous, and I hope you get the widest possible exposure for this information.
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Old February 27, 2013, 05:40 PM   #4
TDL
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Let me thank you too. I think that story is like the AR-15 supposedly being in the trunk at Newton. It is a distraction.

What is going on is nothing sneaky or nefarious. It is simply a full court press to end the second amendment.

Strategies of stigmatizing owners, segmenting the gun owner population, using anecdotes and not facts, raising costs of ownership, pushing new laws federally and in states, and above all distracting from the cause of violent crime which is felons on the streets, are all occurring above the radar.

We don't have to imagine conspiracies when the frontal assault is so evident.
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Old February 27, 2013, 05:48 PM   #5
Spats McGee
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Good information. I've copied SHE3PDOG's posts over onto the Repository of Statistics, etc. thread in L&CR, as these are good, solid sources for information and discussion of gubmint ammo purchases.

Thanks, SHE3PDOG.
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Old February 27, 2013, 05:54 PM   #6
Fishing_Cabin
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good post!

Also SHE3PDOG just fyi:

Quote:
While it is not required to use hollow points by all agencies for target practice there is still a substantial amount of hollow points used in practice and qualification.
Perhaps a better way to describe this is how its mandated for qualification. Practice, training, and qualification ammo must be either duty ammo, or its ballistic equivalent hence is why there is so much hollow point ammo used in LE.

Pointing out that minor fact will help some folks to better understand the "why"
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Old February 27, 2013, 06:19 PM   #7
Cowboy_mo
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if the HSA guys/gals at the airport are an example of their employees, it is very scary to think of them carrying guns!!!

And, could someone explain to me why the SSA needs guns or ammo??? I haven't read or heard about any Sr. citizens going postal in the SSA office.
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Old February 27, 2013, 09:55 PM   #8
Tom Servo
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The relevant information is duplicated in the other thread, and it's stickied for better visibility. Closed with the OP's OK.
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