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Old February 25, 2013, 12:59 PM   #51
manta49
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Quote:
Household members are safer in the home of legal gun owners.
I did not say that family members were not safer in the home of legal owners.

Quote:
no indications it adds anything but expense and no allowance for individual needs.
( There are allowances for individual needs ).

Quote:
If you are concerned with burglary and have a handgun and no kids your best protection by far is some "diversionary" method, say a hollowed out or fake book.
Yeah burglars would not look trough books for cash. Hiding forearms did no work for the children bellow.

Quote:
I am saying that's how it happens here i am not saying its a good thing that here its a requirement that you have to have a safe before getting firearms. I am not saying it would be a good thing in America


My earlier post above so i don't know were you are coming from.

Some facts.
Quote:
On July 19, 4-year-old Dylan Jackson shot himself to death after finding a loaded gun at a friend's home during a birthday party
Quote:
Last February, a 13-year-old boy shot himself with a semiautomatic handgun in the home of his guardian, a Maryland police officer.
Quote:
A 2-year-old Tampa boy shot himself in the chest with a loaded 9 mm he found in his parent's couch while playing.
Quote:
The 10-year-old son of a New York City police officer died after shooting himself in the face with his father's loaded revolver. The boy found the weapon on a shelf in the basement while looking for a ball his mom had hidden.
There are a few incidents were children are dead because of irresponsible firearms owners.
PS I think locking away your firearms when not in use is a small price to pay to help stop some of the above incidents.

Last edited by manta49; February 25, 2013 at 03:49 PM.
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Old February 25, 2013, 06:29 PM   #52
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I hide all of my guns - except one - in large, heavy Fort Knox safe. My dog will lick any burglars into submission.
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Old February 25, 2013, 10:57 PM   #53
TDL
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Manta, your posts on this topic make no sense and are based on debunked faked and false claims.

You have said that 500 children are killed by firearms accidents per year in the US and that is the most absurd debunked bunch of garbage there is. the average per year is less than 50 -- in a country with TENS of thousands of accidental child deaths by other causes

You are also ignoring that the small number of kids killed in these incidents are almost all in the homes of criminals and cops. (ALL your examples are criminals or cops homes!)

You are ignoring that most studies show NO SAFETY increase from gun locking laws.

Quote:
Yeah burglars would not look trough books for cash. .
Actually burglars dont look through bookcases. they look for safes and cart them away.

Quote:
Hiding forearms did no work for the children bellow
Actually in those case they were not hidden, so again you are just making it up.

You realize the anecdotes you took came from the same site absurdly claiming 500?

Dylan Jackson and the tampa kid were in the homes of a FELONS with illegal weapons. Felons don't lock their weapons no matter what rules you wish to impose.

The other two were COPS. Police are excluded from these rules anyway


Diversion hiding is RECOMMEDED by police OVER safes for burglary protection. Safes are attractants to burglars. Thieves don't go through books. Long arms army mean no choice but a large safe, but for handguns for home defense small safes offer no burglary protection whatsoever.

Burglars go to bedrooms first. They rifle women's underwear drawers, not because they are interest in underwear but because women hid their valuables there. They then look for any safe or lockbox in the bedroom. anything under 200 lbs, even bolted will be crowbarred off its bolts and taken in whole.

to protect against burglary you need a hiding place, not a sub $3000 safe or gun locks.

to protect against small children you need lockboxes or small safes.

to protect older children you need rules and training
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Old February 25, 2013, 11:15 PM   #54
TDL
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I hide all of my guns - except one - in large, heavy Fort Knox safe.
they are better than average safes. average $1000 -$2000 safes sold in box stores are 12 gauge. 12 gauge can be cut with hacksaw, indeed with sheers, and can be cut in half in five minutes with a $75 120 volt grinder. 12 gauge is a 12th of an inch.


For long guns you have n choice. you should buy the best safe possible. for a home defense handguns requiring locks safes or strongboxes ignores variables for each owner class and need.

handgun safes make sense, as I said, in some cases for homes with children. You increase you chance of theft from burglary with a small safe, but depending on factors only the home and gun owner knows, the mix of diversion, locking and whether loaded or not is best known by the gun owner.

Locked unloaded is prudent for hunting long guns. For defensive weapons the options should be open for the owner
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Old February 26, 2013, 01:06 PM   #55
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A good safe makes a lot of sense especially if there are children in the home. A safe is a deterent for thief's. All in all, a safe is a good choice but not everyone can afford a proper safe.

I think a little remodeling around a closet (with steel around the door frame) and a good dead bolt is sufficient to child proof any home. They aren't going to break down the sheet rock on the back side, but a thief would. The dead bolt would draw their attention like a magnet.
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Old February 26, 2013, 02:18 PM   #56
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Actually in those case they were not hidden, so again you are just making it up.
If they had properly locked away the incidents could have being avoided.

Quote:
Dylan Jackson and the tampa kid were in the homes of a FELONS with illegal weapons. Felons don't lock their weapons no matter what rules you wish to impose.
I refer you to my earlier post. How you read into what is in the post as me wanting rules imposed i don't know.

Quote:
( I am saying that's how it happens here i am not saying its a good thing that here its a requirement that you have to have a safe before getting firearms. I am not saying it would be a good thing in America.) I think if you have firearms it makes sense to secure
them them as best you can to keep them out of the hands of burglars kids etc.
Quote:
to protect older children you need rules and training




Yes and teenagers always follow rules.


PS You can keep going on about me wanting Americans to be required to have gun safes if you want. Don't let the fact that that's not what i said stop you.

Last edited by manta49; February 26, 2013 at 02:24 PM.
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Old February 26, 2013, 02:47 PM   #57
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In a locking cabinet if not a safe. Not doing so is foolishness besides the one or two defensive weapons at the ready.
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Old February 26, 2013, 03:13 PM   #58
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Children are many times more likely to die from exposure to chemicals improperly stored than firearms.

The mirror set-up is easy to make on your own. Just use a couple of drawer rollers and install them on the wall. There is an Amish furniture maker in my area who specializes in such set-ups for jewelery boxes, guns, etc.
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Old February 26, 2013, 04:09 PM   #59
manta49
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Children are many times more likely to die from exposure to chemicals improperly stored than firearms.
True all that means is that chemicals should be stored safely so that children can't have access to them the same goes for firearms.
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Old February 26, 2013, 04:36 PM   #60
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They make cabinets for chemicals, too, but the point is a lockable steel cabinet with some supplemental hasps/locks ala Joe Pike keeps them out of the reach of children, and some smash and grabs. Firearms security isn't an Easter egg hunt, and hiding guns isn't really acceptable. If you can't afford a safe for your long guns, buy a small safe and put your handguns in it, along with the bolts from your long guns. If it's a levergun, run some hardened chain through it and padlock it to something solid. Let's get a little creative here.
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Old February 26, 2013, 04:53 PM   #61
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Training and Discipline are the best gun safes for children. Couriosity killed the cat (and the kid). Do not ever make your weapons a "mystery" to be solved by a child...they will (not may) solve it, to your regret.

My opinion on gun safes...they are to keep your firearms safe in case of a FIRE...people can get in all them, and they advertize that there is something valuable enough to be protected. The more expensive the safe, the more valuable the possible contents.

Where to hide your guns that will not be used? (if hide is all you want)...In a bookcase, in a false book for small weapons. In/under a pedistal bed with a locking/lifting bed, for long guns...but remember, these types of securing a weapon will not help in case of FIRE....yes, the biggest concern where I live is forest fire.
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Old February 26, 2013, 05:04 PM   #62
manta49
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Training and Discipline are the best gun safes for children. Couriosity killed the cat (and the kid). Do not ever make your weapons a "mystery" to be solved by a child...they will (not may) solve it, to your regret.


So you are happy to leave a firearm somewhere that a child can have access to it and rely on the fact that you told them not to touch it.

Quote:
A 2-year-old Tampa boy shot himself in the chest with a loaded 9 mm he found in his parent's couch while playing.
In my opinion if you have firearms you have the responsibility as much possible to make sure that no one unauthorised should have access to them.

Last edited by manta49; February 26, 2013 at 05:47 PM.
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Old February 26, 2013, 08:57 PM   #63
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Where do you hide your guns...?

I do have to point out that when you read these stories about children "accidentally" shooting themselves they are rarely true as far as the real facts of the case. Having experience in a few of these situations the media rarely get it right nor do they care to get it right. The stories provided by the victims, victims parents, relatives or neighbors are hardly ever the honest accounts of the real incident. Similar to the hunting rifle that accidentally went off story.
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Old February 26, 2013, 11:18 PM   #64
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dont have a safe and dont hide them....my kids know exactly where they are and where the ammo is for them. i would trust my 6yr old boy and 9yr old girl with all of my guns. they know damn well the guns are not toys and when i tell them we are going out shooting i ask them what guns they want to take and they come to the corner of my bed were the gun cabinet(glass door) and they wall rack and we start looking. they name off the guns they want to shoot that day and i lay them on the bed. tell them to go get the ammo for the guns they picked. i have taught my kids from day one how to behave, how to act and how to hopefully be a responsible adult. in fact my 6yr old boy is prob more of a adult then most actual adults out there today, he knows right from wrong, truth from lies and knows there are causes and effects froms either. truly believe that is what is wrong with kids and society today, there is no cause and effect anymore. we think particpating is worth a medal, we dont keep score at ball games cause god forbid someone night lose. stop molly coddling your kids, let them learn its alright to lose, but if you lie or steal or do wrong dad has a leather belt on his waist and it comes off and gets put across his or her butt. dont abuse but for sure disipline your kids.

oh and when im not home have a st bernard and a german shepard that will lick you or drown you in drool when im home, if i or wife and kids not home i wont even know you have been there other then the broken stuff around house, because they will eat you and lick up the blood afterwards.
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Old February 27, 2013, 06:18 AM   #65
TDL
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A 2-year-old Tampa boy shot himself in the chest with a loaded 9 mm he found in his parent's couch while playing.
Quote:
If they had properly locked away the incidents could have being avoided.
Of your four anecdotes, two are from felons and two from cops.

Cops are excluded and indemnified in almost all US jurisdictions from gun safe lock laws where present.

Felons are the exact data set that get included in statistics and perverts studies of gun accidents in homes.

Take away felons and gun owner homes, including homes with children, are SAFER than the general population.

your anecdote and your statistics are prime examples of flawed thinking not of actual gun safety.

In almost all US jurisdictions new guns are must by law come with locks. Those locks provide a FALSE sense of security.

IN the US almost all large safes are now extremely cheap easy to defeat Chinese made safes which are manufactured under the big box store's primary qualification -- cheap price.

AS I have said in prior posts the problem is all the statistics and anecdotes don't educate the gun owners, since they promulgated by anti gun groups and people and are fake or outliers they miseducate them

Manta haw now repeated cited the 500 children killed in gun accidents per year claim, when in fact the is a number comes out of thin air an din truth is inflated by a factor of ten, along with the anecdotes that turn out to reflect episodes tied to police or felons.

Safes are part of the solution some of the time.

requiring $4000 safes in bedrooms for handguns is part of the strategy to increase costs of weapons. No one is going to do that.
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Old February 27, 2013, 06:59 AM   #66
TDL
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So you are happy to leave a firearm somewhere that a child can have access to it and rely on the fact that you told them not to touch it.
Thanks for misrepresenting me. I have said it depends.

You have repeatedly advocated a blanket legal requirement, regardless of whether people have kids and how old they are -- and without a shred of evidence as to whether the requirement you advocated makes anyone safer, when in fact it can cause greater danger

The blanket requirement is about adding costs. If not enough costs (short of a 1/4 inch two second biometric) are added, reduces self defense utlity,

A simple lock box maybe best when a child is under 5. a $200 quick access maybe best when a kid is between 5-15. Anything less than a $4000 safe maybe a huge mistake for a kid who is 17. A $400 safe giving someone a false sense of security could be more dangerous than other methods of storage and training of the 17 year old.

Studies have shown that when given free gun locks, safes or trigger locks 2/3 of law enforcement refuse to use them at home citing difficulty in speedy access to the weapon to defend themselves at home.

http://www.experts.scival.com/reachn...y&u_id=5000812

a) a murderer or criminal is going to plan and not have a gun lock on,
b)police know that their ability to defend themselves at home is harmed by gun locks, safes etc

My point is simple: there isn't a shred of evidence that the net effect of legal requirements is to make a household safer. they may make the household more dangerous.
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Old February 27, 2013, 11:50 AM   #67
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OP here

TDL... I appreciate the points made.
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Old February 27, 2013, 01:42 PM   #68
manta49
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You have repeatedly advocated a blanket legal requirement, regardless of whether people have kids and how old they are -- and without a shred of evidence as to whether the requirement you advocated makes anyone safer, when in fact it can cause greater danger
Thanks for misrepresenting me. I seem to be talking to my self would some one please show me were i said that there should be any legal requirements regards firearms in America.

What i said bellow its plain English i don't know why people don't seem to understand it i will post it again.
What i said in my earlier post.
Quote:
( I am saying that's how it happens here i am not saying its a good thing that here its a requirement that you have to have a safe before getting firearms. I am not saying it would be a good thing in America.) I think if you have firearms it makes sense to secure
them them as best you can to keep them out of the hands of burglars kids etc.
What part of the above do people not understand .

Quote:
don't have a safe and don't hide them....my kids know exactly where they are and where the ammo is for them. i would trust my 6yr old boy and 9yr old girl with all of my guns
That's good can you say that other peoples children would be so sensible with firearms.

Quote:
My point is simple: there isn't a shred of evidence that the net effect of legal requirements is to make a household safer. they may make the household more dangerous
Who said it should be a legal requirement. ?

PS If people think that its a good idea to leave firearms were burglars and children can have easy access to them go for it i think its a bad idea.

Last edited by manta49; February 27, 2013 at 02:52 PM.
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Old February 27, 2013, 02:30 PM   #69
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Why not a steel door on a bedroom closet?

If you have a small closet, why not install a protective/security door with a deadbolt or similar secure locking device?

Yes, the would-be-thieves could get into the space by eventually battering the door down or tearing the walls out, but would they take the time simply because its a locked door?

MHO.
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Old February 27, 2013, 06:36 PM   #70
TDL
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Thanks for misrepresenting me
Man you have either LIED or fallen for absurd and massively inflated claims with your:
Quote:
One statistics that i found disturbing is that annually 500 children in America are killed accidentally after finding firearms at friends or families homes.
that is you in this post http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=488298

Quote:
I Am not sure about America but you can buy a safe here for around £100.
The £100/$200 safe isn't going to stop a burglar or intent child over 15.

The are no $200 safes that cant simply be carted away by a burglar.

The issue of safes, quality of safes, strong boxes, quick access strong boxes, loaded or unloaded, and loaded in nightstand drawer, or hidden, or for that matter stored at the range, are dependent on circumstances.

A man living in a rural area with low breakings and with he or his wife often home, or his wife often home alone and no children, may well have the highest degree of safety by having a several loaded weapons at easy access.
A person with a gifted but depressed 17 year old may have a really false sense of security from ANY safe.
A person in a high burglary area who is often not home may be best with the weapons hidden in a false wall or false book.
A person with a $800 full size Chinese big box store safe in the basement may be at a higher risk of burglary because the safe makes the gun collection evident after ten years of 30 workmen (individual and pairs of pairs of AC, heating, Water softener, Ari conditioning, Washings machine repairmen; plumbers, electricians and meter readers, ) seeing it and knowing it can be defeated in five minutes with a $75 grinder.

The problems in good informed discussions are :
a) FALSE information such as you have stated about 500 kids/year dying in accidental gun deaths
b) False information such as you relayed in meaningless anecdotes that are NOT about legal civil gun owners.
c) false sense of security from laws that mandate "locks" sold with new weapons, My ten year old could defeat these mandated locks I was forced to pay for.
d) false information currently being flogged in the press about homes with guns being more dangerous when those claims are based on obscenely flawed studies.

So STOP the emotional anecdotes about dead kids. Kids die in gun accidents and for all you know an equal number die in home invasions and robberies where a ready gun outside a safe might have saved them.

My oldest is in college. He is an extremely responsible well adjusted kid who is trained in firearms safety. My other kids are much younger. I use $200 a easy access strongbox but I don't kid my self that will be sufficient when they are teenagers, and may have teen age friends over.. I also don't kid myself into thinking a $200 strongbox/small safe will do a thing to prevent it being burgled. I live in a city, but when my wife is a widow and if she is living in a rural area, since she is smart she will know to keep one loaded and easily available.
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Old February 27, 2013, 06:57 PM   #71
smokiniron
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OP here....

1. Buy a cheap safe, bolt it to the floor, and fill it with 2X4s and galvanized pipes that will rattle like real guns when they pry it off the floor. Make sure the thieves can remove it without too much effort.

2. Hide the guns in the walls behind a bookcase or mirror.

All you lose is a $200 safe. Joke's on the thieves.

Diversionary tactic X 2
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:35 PM   #72
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Closed, before the level of civility descends any farther than it has.
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