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Old February 26, 2013, 12:52 AM   #1
jag2
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Rules are there for a reason

Some idiot at an indoor range in Dallas decided to ignore the rule and fired a tracer round. Burned one of the nicest indoor ranges TOO THE GROUND. Anything else I say will get bleeped by the mods.
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Old February 26, 2013, 01:50 AM   #2
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Link, or it didn't happen.
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Old February 26, 2013, 05:43 AM   #3
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https://www.google.com/search?q=dall...&client=safari

Seems legit.
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Old February 26, 2013, 11:53 AM   #4
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I've actually seen this happen to a range. In that case, one person's foolishness (or malicious intent) did over $250,000 in the blink of an eye.
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Old February 26, 2013, 11:55 AM   #5
Mike Irwin
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What the hell was the backstop area made of?

Bales of kerosene-soaked cotton?
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Old February 26, 2013, 12:13 PM   #6
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In the case I saw, it was a steel backstop. The tracer ignited small amounts of unburnt powder. It was enough to send some flames into the exhaust, which spread from there.

In the case of the range mentioned in this thread, it was a backstop of granulated rubber, which many ranges use.
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Old February 26, 2013, 12:59 PM   #7
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Seems like a good summary article. http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/dalla...192889931.html

The article said the shooter would not be prosecuted since it was an accident. If the range had rules on using tracer rounds, then the shooter has liability whether he likes it or not. The insurance company will take him to court regardless of what the article said if tracers were not allowed at the range.

As far as rules go, there are practical safety minded rules and there are rules set to reduce liability. I don't like indoor ranges much. My one membership was un-memorable and I didn't renew it. Have not tried a different indoor range. My experience level on indoor ranges is not substantial and limited to two ranges.
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Old February 26, 2013, 01:19 PM   #8
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Makes me (kind of) understand ranges that make you use their ammunition and not shoot your own.

I do not like or support that policy but I guess this story makes me slightly more sympathetic to that restriction.
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Old February 26, 2013, 01:30 PM   #9
SPEMack618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
What the hell was the backstop area made of?

Bales of kerosene-soaked cotton?
I vaguely remember a training film in the Army that talked about the effects of tracers and what all they could do. There were several scenes of tracers setting all sorts of things on fire.

if I remember right, somebody using tracers(accidentally) on a live fire FTX nearly burned down half of Hunter-Liggett.
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Old February 26, 2013, 11:35 PM   #10
Mike Irwin
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Trust me, I've seen what tracers can do.

I've also seen powder fires at gun ranges where I've worked.

Just didn't expect to hear that a tracer took out the entire building.
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Old February 27, 2013, 01:24 AM   #11
hoghunting
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Quote:
The article said the shooter would not be prosecuted since it was an accident. If the range had rules on using tracer rounds, then the shooter has liability whether he likes it or not. The insurance company will take him to court regardless of what the article said if tracers were not allowed at the range.
The shooter isn't being prosecuted because he did not break any laws, it was a violation of range rules to use tracers, but there is no law prohibiting the use of tracers in Dallas.

The owner of the gun range is an attorney and had his law office in the same building, no doubt there will lawsuits filed. My question though, where was the RSO - range safety officer as it was reported that the shooter fired multiple tracer rounds?
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Old February 27, 2013, 01:30 AM   #12
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My question though, where was the RSO - range safety officer as it was reported that the shooter fired multiple tracer rounds?
It only takes a split second to touch a couple off. By the time he'd have registered what happened, the fire would have already started.

The same goes for range suicides. Unless the RSO was standing directly behind the shooter with a hand on his shoulder, he couldn't have done anything.
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Old February 27, 2013, 02:14 AM   #13
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I think it was 2011, tracers set fire to the surrounding hillside at Knob Creek and they had to cut short the MG shoot. The Fort Knox soldiers also had numerous brush fires at the same time.
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Old February 27, 2013, 02:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
What the hell was the backstop area made of?

Bales of kerosene-soaked cotton?
That's kind of what I was thinking.

Quote:
In the case I saw, it was a steel backstop. The tracer ignited small amounts of unburnt powder. It was enough to send some flames into the exhaust, which spread from there.
That's why my range doesn't allow tracers or sparking steel ammo.
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:31 AM   #15
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Most ranges I know don't allow steel core ammo simply because it really batters the impact plates in addition to the spark issues.
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:44 AM   #16
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JohnKSa and I discussed this a bit. IWRC, the range uses shredded rubber (most likely, tires) as backstop material.
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:47 AM   #17
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Hmmm...is there no requirement for some kind of a fire detection and/or suppression system at indoor firing ranges?
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Old February 27, 2013, 08:14 AM   #18
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Most ranges I know don't allow steel core ammo simply because it really batters the impact plates in addition to the spark issues.
Stupid question but, to avoid this, how does one know if they have steel core ammunition? Does it say that on the box or is that special ammunition or something? I'm saying that because of the Great Freakout II with limited ammo available, I'm looking at that joyous East European stuff (if even that ever comes in).
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Old February 27, 2013, 08:23 AM   #19
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Stupid question but, to avoid this, how does one know if they have steel core ammunition?
They don't know if it has a penetrator or not. To err on the safe side many simply reject any bullets that are attracted to a magnet.
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Old February 27, 2013, 08:23 AM   #20
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@zincwarrior,

One option with foreign ammo is to use a magnet. If the projectiles of your rounds stick to the magnet, they're not allowed to be fired on the ranges I shoot at.

Sport45 - looks like we posted simultaneously...
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Old February 27, 2013, 11:52 AM   #21
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Most ranges I know don't allow steel core ammo simply because it really batters the impact plates in addition to the spark issues.
It's not just steel core. Much of the Tula, Herter's, and RWS ammunition on the market has a lead bullet with a steel jacket and copper coating. It's often referred to as "bi-metal."

That stuff actually generates worse sparks from what I've seen. The problem for buyers is that it doesn't say that anywhere on the box, and many of the shops selling it don't mention it.

So, customers buy it because it's the only ammo around at a reasonable price. They take it to a range, and they're told they can't shoot it. It's not a fun conversation.

As Doc Intrepid mentioned, a magnet is the best test.
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Old February 27, 2013, 11:55 AM   #22
Mike Irwin
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Yes, the mild steel jacketed stuff will do crazy sparks. It's also very hard on the backer plates.


"the range uses shredded rubber (most likely, tires) as backstop material."

Yikes. No wonder it was a bad fire.
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Old February 27, 2013, 12:52 PM   #23
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Yup, burning tires are difficult to put out.

My unit was firing M60 Qualification at a range in Korea around '83 and one of our KATUSAs (Korean Augmentation to the United States Army), ignored or did not correctly understand the instruction to not fire up into the hillside behind the range. He started firing off sustained bursts and very quickly we were yelling cease fire and running up that hill with anything we could find to put out all the little fires he had started. We used shovels, etools, canteens, vehicle fire extinguishers, the bottoms of our boots. We just barely got control of those fires.

The KATUSA 1SG had a lively discipline session with that boy afterwards
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Old February 27, 2013, 12:57 PM   #24
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Quote:
Most ranges I know don't allow steel core ammo simply because it really batters the impact plates in addition to the spark issues.

It's not just steel core. Much of the Tula, Herter's, and RWS ammunition on the market has a lead bullet with a steel jacket and copper coating. It's often referred to as "bi-metal."

That stuff actually generates worse sparks from what I've seen. The problem for buyers is that it doesn't say that anywhere on the box, and many of the shops selling it don't mention it.

So, customers buy it because it's the only ammo around at a reasonable price. They take it to a range, and they're told they can't shoot it. It's not a fun conversation.

As Doc Intrepid mentioned, a magnet is the best test.
Glad I asked. I thought it was some sort of special rounds, not the cheaper junk that (used to be) out there. Now nothing is out there...
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Old February 27, 2013, 02:15 PM   #25
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The only ammo that is seriously short here in Sierra Vista, AZ. is .223/5.56mm and .22LR. I need some .22LR to run through my new Shopkeeper and can't find any anywhere.

Most everything else can be found and .380ACP is fat on the shelves and cheap. I should stock up since it will eventually sell down and the price is decent.
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