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Old February 21, 2013, 11:26 AM   #51
ltc444
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Clydefrog. The issue at Ruby Ridge which should concern every citizen are the rules of engagement.
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Old February 21, 2013, 11:49 AM   #52
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It doesnt matter if she was armed - the rules of engagement were illegal and against policy

no agent or anyone else was being threatened - period

Vickie was holding a ten month old when she was shot. To be fair she was actually in the line of fire when Horiuchi was shooting at Harris - but again it was an illegal shoot no matter what.

Horiuchi also came up on my radar when I was doing the Waco Report (yes he was there too) - he was shooting at the compound from the house in front of the compound on April 19th (the final raid) the FBI found his 308 casings but "declined" to match them to his rifle - hmmmmmmm
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Old February 21, 2013, 12:06 PM   #53
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SF Medic Thank you for your comment #46. You expressed my thoughts and concerns (comment #42) in a concise manner.
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Old February 21, 2013, 10:06 PM   #54
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Jeff Cooper...

The late Jeff Cooper decryed Lon Harutchi(a USMA grad & HRT sniper).
Cooper said Harutchi was wrong & will be accountable for his acts by some higher power.
To my knowledge, Special Agent Lon Harutchi was cleared for his first sniper shot but found by the OPR(Office of Professional Responsiblity) to be wrong for firing the second rifle shot.
I think legal eagle; Jerry Spence was Randy Weaver's atty. Spence got the Weavers about 2/3mil. $$$.

Clyde

Last edited by ClydeFrog; February 21, 2013 at 10:14 PM.
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Old February 21, 2013, 10:15 PM   #55
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< Moderator Hat >

Let's not make this personal, please. Thanks, guys.

</ Moderator Hat >

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Old February 22, 2013, 12:36 AM   #56
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Just asking a question, Pax.
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Old February 25, 2013, 12:17 AM   #57
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In regards to military versuses civilian training, I would like to tell a brief story to illustrate the difference.

My Plt Sgt is a Deputy in our home county as a day job. I want to say he has been a deputy for round about twenty years.

In the big Sandbox, we came upon a Taliban fellow holding his rifle at his side. He was a threat, or at least had been until his kid got hit. There was a very tense moment or two in which this guy stood and stared at four U.S. Soliders, all armed with M-4s and didn't do a thing. According to the ROE, we couldn't shoot him just then, but if he had moved to bring up said Enfield, we could have ventilated him.

I'll never forget my Platoon Sergeant screaming, in horrendous southern accented Pasthun for him to drop his weapon. The rest of were merely waiting for him to either drop it or make a move that could be considered hostile.

Riding back to the FOB, my Plt Sgt mentioned that he would have liked to have had his Tazer.
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Old February 25, 2013, 11:06 PM   #58
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Being a Marine rifleman i can tell you that its nothing like the weekend rambo classes one can take. You show up and its game on for 12 weeks then on to more training as a rifleman then its on to your MOS. EVERY Marine is a rifleman. Some of us 0311 were by MOS a rifleman in the infantry. You just cant get any of that training in some weekend classes. Its a hell of a lot more than just being able to fire a weapon
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Old February 25, 2013, 11:16 PM   #59
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Semper Fi!...

Right on!

Years ago, I watched a TV news reporter interview Robert K Brown(US Army Reserves, ret, SF/0-5). Brown started & was CEO of the popular Soldier of Fortune magazine.

The female reporter said: Mr Brown, what training schools or places could someone go to learn these tactics or how to handle these weapons?
Robert K Brown got a sly grin & said; There are many good places to start a career & learn these skills; Paris Island, Fort Dix NJ, Fort Benning GA, Fort Bragg NC, Camp Lejune.... .
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Old February 26, 2013, 02:32 AM   #60
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Quote:
Being a Marine rifleman i can tell you that its nothing like the weekend rambo classes one can take. You show up and its game on for 12 weeks then on to more training as a rifleman then its on to your MOS. EVERY Marine is a rifleman. Some of us 0311 were by MOS a rifleman in the infantry. You just cant get any of that training in some weekend classes. Its a hell of a lot more than just being able to fire a weapon
Great post and thank you for your service.

Being a civilian, none of my weekend 3Gun, IDPA, etc courses will ever paramount to actual Military training and deployment. Rules are different in the civilian world vs LEO/Military. Nothing wrong with those civilian courses, but they just do not replicate a true hostile environment when bad guys may be shooting back with live ammunition.
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