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Old February 19, 2013, 11:24 PM   #26
pax
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Thanks, Vanya.

There's one more category. This one makes me sound paranoid to put into words, but here goes. Colorado's Rep. Salazar recently made some comments that really brought this one forward for me.

It's like this: whenever I encounter a man who is obviously afraid that women might use firearms to effectively fight back against rapists and sexual abusers … well, it makes me wonder if he's a sexual predator. A man who so clearly pictures himself being at the dangerous end of a woman's panic on that subject makes me wonder about both his past history and his future plans.

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Old February 19, 2013, 11:48 PM   #27
Matno
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Re: The Great Gun Grab...not the how, but WHY?

All of the above reasons are valid, but for those of us who are religious, the reason has always been the same: Satan is real, and he is hard at work trying to destroy the agency of man (i.e. freedom) just as he always has. He is the master of deception and can make half truths and downright lies seem appealing. One of his most effective techniques is to get people to overlook consequences. Ignorance goes a long way toward blinding people to truth. When much of our society knows more about pop culture than they do about politics, he is clearly winning the battle. Ultimately he will lose the war, but not before a lot of potentially good souls are deceived. Our job is to help educate those who may be on the fence...
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Old February 20, 2013, 01:04 AM   #28
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To me, the immediate reason is partisan political advantage, but the underlying cause of the plan for disarmament is just that : disarming the population. The reasons for disarming us are many, but it's about control, permanent ruling class/elite, and the destruction of American culture and way of life. We stand in their way.
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Old February 20, 2013, 02:16 AM   #29
Vanya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
It's like this: whenever I encounter a man who is obviously afraid that women might use firearms to effectively fight back against rapists and sexual abusers … well, it makes me wonder if he's a sexual predator. A man who so clearly pictures himself being at the dangerous end of a woman's panic on that subject makes me wonder about both his past history and his future plans.
Nothing paranoid about it. When you think about all the comments from politicians and other public figures of late -- my personal favorite was the gentleman who claimed that if a woman gets pregnant, it wasn't "really" rape -- it's obvious that a lot of men have problems with the idea that women have a right to decide what happens to their bodies, and a right to protect their bodies from harm.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:20 AM   #30
Flopsweat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
...
The true liberal mind seeks power and lives to push his/her way of life on others, love abortion but hates the death penalty, hates the keystone pipe line but believes in open borders with huge numbers damaging the environment they also love victims not heroes. IMO no logic to their thinking so it's good enough to simply know they do not want anyone to own guns.
Seems to me that if you changed the order of the words love and hate you could be talking about us. Truth is most of them are closer to the middle, just like most of us. If you assume that they are all crazy you'll never get to talk to the sane ones.
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Old February 20, 2013, 06:39 AM   #31
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I don't want to say too much on this, but look up the UN small arms treaty for clarification on why.
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Old February 20, 2013, 06:46 AM   #32
shafter
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The main issue is about control. We can certainly see how the government is encroaching upon more and more aspects of our personal lives and creating new rules and regulations almost daily. They can only go so far so fast when a good chunk of the population is armed. By "they" I mean many top government officials as well as certain people behind the scenes with a great deal of money. George Soros comes to mind.

Basically there are two types of antis. The first type is the type that truly believes gun control with make this world safer and "protect the children". They have probably never fired a weapon and feel very uncomfortable around them. The swallow what the media tells them hook, line, and sinker. These people can be professors, elementary school teachers, or really just the neighbor across the street.

Then there are the guys at the top who actually pass these laws and they aren't doing it for the children. They aren't afraid of guns and most own them for protection or recreation. They just don't want "us", to have them. They know gun control doesn't reduce crime, the know all the stats and only want to eliminate guns because they stand in the way of their agendas.

And then there is Feinstein who is just crazy.

That's an oversimplified answer but my point is that some people are genuinly convinced that firearms are dangerous to SOCIETY, while others are convinced firearms are dangerous to THEM.
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Old February 20, 2013, 07:12 AM   #33
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The anti-gun psycology still escapes me, especially when there are cities like Chicago, which despite some of the strictest gun control laws on the books anywhere in the nation, is still experiencing rampant gun-related crimes.

I see how the antis will point to their ongoing gun problem as being 'imported', and how some believe that in order to truly eradicate their gun problem, guns must be banned nation wide. The problem I have is that I dont understand how the anti-gun proponent continues to be blind to the premise that it is not the gun that is the real underlying problem, but the person using the gun with malicious intent as being the problem.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old February 20, 2013, 07:47 AM   #34
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Heres one.
This has been the anti gun foundation for centuries,and always will be.
The passage in the bible called Isaiha. When swords will be beaten into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks.Gun/sword/arrow/pointy stick-you name it.This is what is behind all of the efforts to stop everything that has ever been on the list of things to stop by the people that want to stop them.
Hunting.Meat.PETA.Drugs.Alcohol.Tobacco.Firearms.The Great War.The Great Depression.Which is all fine but I know the Lord aint comin for my smoke pole any more than he wants my wheelbarrow or my shovel.I will keep mine where I keep everything that I love,as close as possible.
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Old February 20, 2013, 07:57 AM   #35
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From pax:
"It's like this: whenever I encounter a man who is obviously afraid that women might use firearms to effectively fight back against rapists and sexual abusers … well, it makes me wonder if he's a sexual predator. A man who so clearly pictures himself being at the dangerous end of a woman's panic on that subject makes me wonder about both his past history and his future plans."

That's a lottttta congressmen!
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Old February 20, 2013, 03:36 PM   #36
Hal
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The Great Gun Grab...not the how, but WHY?
Because those in office no longer see us as adults.
We're viewed as unruly children that need to be told what to do.

Next stop is we're no longer viewed as children or even people, but, as pets.

Who knows, we may be at the pet stage already...

I know for sure that the politicians in this country stopped seeing us as equals a long time ago.
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Old February 20, 2013, 03:41 PM   #37
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The problem I have is that I dont understand how the anti-gun proponent continues to be blind to the premise that it is not the gun that is the real underlying problem, but the person using the gun with malicious intent as being the problem.
Because to some ignorant people guns simply look "scary" and "evil". So, they stereotype anyone who has or likes guns with these scary and evil images.

I'm glad I got married later in life. It permitted me to date all kinds of women. One, self-admittedly, was not all that bright. When I finally told her about my guns, her immediate reaction was "Ewwww, guns are evil". The sight of a firearms scared her - sort of like looking at a boogyman. She viewed firearms like some people would view the Devil in person, or a collection of Voodoo dolls. It's as simple (and stupid) as that. I could have talked about "freedom", "2nd Amendment", "counterbalance to tyranny", on and on until you are blue in the face, and all this particular girl cared about was how soon she could have her next smoke (cigarette) and drink. We truly live in a country full of addicts and idiots.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:55 PM   #38
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Over time, they think that guns will become less and less common, and we will not need to fear violence from those with firearms.
that is an understandable ignorant fear of many in the general public. But the politicians are working on another premise, and it isn't about setting up a tyranny. it is more simple: the stock and trade of politics for thousand of years is distraction and scapegoating. They cant solve the problem of crime but they can go after the low hanging fruit of legal gun owners
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Old February 20, 2013, 05:02 PM   #39
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So I read that teh national guard in Iowa is training on tactics like clearing a house, riot control etc in an effort to assist the state patrol. Now this sounds like a gun grab kinda plan to me. I only hope I am paranoid and this will not be reality.

The govt is scared of the public, they know we are not all warm and fuzzy with taxes and cost of living so high we cant get ahead. What are they expecting is my question and what will they do to get the public so riled they wish to have us all unarmed?

http://www.southwestiowanews.com/den...9bb2963f4.html

added link to the article. It was dated 2-19-2013

Last edited by markj; February 20, 2013 at 05:12 PM.
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Old February 21, 2013, 04:06 AM   #40
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My take on the topic is that those people who are anti-gun, most commonly politicians, celebrities, and others do not understand exactly how firearms operate. They are uneducated and have no clue when it comes to firearms-- so they fear it and shun it instead, and want others not to have access to them unless you are Military/LE.

Just look at Feinstein, Brady, and Piers Morgan. They all think all AR/AK's are fully automatic and will "continue to fire as long as you hold the trigger". They do not know, or care to be educated that civilian AR/AK's are semi-auto, and those full-auto/select fire are highly regulated by the ATF and mostly not owned by the general public.

They defend hunting when it comes to shotguns/bolt rifles, and self-defense when it comes to revolvers and low capacity firearms, but are highly against high capacity magazines and "evil features" when those are not the real cause of violence in society.

In short, ignorance and fear is the underlying cause.
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Old February 21, 2013, 07:35 AM   #41
TDL
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Just look at Feinstein, Brady, and Piers Morgan. They all think all AR/AK's are fully automatic
I don't think they think that. I think they know the difference. they just belong to the school of thought that telling lie long enough works. and as a matter of fact it does.
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Old February 21, 2013, 09:08 AM   #42
BlueTrain
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If the rate of fire of a semi-automatic AK or AR rifle is about 120 rounds a minute versus whatever a fully-automatic version is, what difference does it make? Of course, you could always get one of those little burst gadgets to save the effort it takes to pull the trigger each time.
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Old February 21, 2013, 10:47 AM   #43
Skans
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If the rate of fire of a semi-automatic AK or AR rifle is about 120 rounds a minute versus whatever a fully-automatic version is, what difference does it make?
A HUGE difference. Try this: You have two rifles, one is a Mini-14 and the other is an AC556 (full-auto Mini). Each has a fully loaded 100 round Beta Mag attached. Using the full-auto you have 1 minute to hit intended targets and empty the magazine. Now, try hitting your targets and emptying 100 rounds in 1 minute with the semi-auto Mini-14.

I can tell you, full-auto in short bursts will be way more effective than trying to pull that trigger as fast as you can 100 times while trying to keep your muzzle on target. It's not even close to being the same.
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Old February 21, 2013, 01:47 PM   #44
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Do Not Buy New York Hunting License.

The SAFE was railroaded through by Cuomo in the 11th hour.
It is now Law.

As of now it will take the Supreme Court to change it. That could take years.
The Counties have been fighting back by passing non binding resolutions against the SAFE act, but that is just noise, good noise but just noise.

There has been some talk about not getting hunting or fishing licenses this year.
If successful that could cost the Governor millions. I think that could make a real statement.

Every little bit helps when we are trying to get through the Governors skull.
He did the wrong thing to all gun owners and we must all stick together.
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Old February 21, 2013, 02:09 PM   #45
lcpiper
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Nothing paranoid about it. When you think about all the comments from politicians and other public figures of late -- my personal favorite was the gentleman who claimed that if a woman gets pregnant, it wasn't "really" rape --

Vanya, sorry but that isn't the gist of what was said at all. In fact this is what the Democrats twisted his statement into.

His statement was about a woman being "legitimately raped". His opponents twisted his statement to make it sound like he was saying there existed a legitimate and illegitimate reasons for rape.

This was not his purpose or intent. He was talking about her claim when a woman's claim of being raped was false and illegitimate. The problem is he worded his statement poorly and this is what they made of it. It was like fire on gasoline, women were burning up everywhere and you couldn't get an explanation in sideways cause they weren't listening.

Here is his actual statement.
Quote:
Well you know, people always want to try to make that as one of those things, well how do you, how do you slice this particularly tough sort of ethical question. First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that’s really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. But let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work or something. I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child.

What the man had such a hard time saying was that under extreme stress women frequently will not conceive. I am not saying this is an accurate statement, only that this was what he intended the meaning to be.

taken from this site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_an...timate_rape.22


And when this wiki page says all these highly respected specialists say the dude is wrong, we do have studies like this.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_relea...ts/100811.html

Quote:
The results showed that the chances of getting pregnant for the quarter of women in the study with the highest levels of alpha-amylase were roughly 12% lower than the quarter of women with the lowest levels of alpha-amylase, each day during the fertile days of their menstrual cycle.
Alpha-amylase is a marker indicating stress that is adrenaline related which would be the kind of stress a raped woman would be expected to experience. But the study also mentions Cortisol which is connected with longer periods of a raised response and stress. which would also typically follow the period after being raped so in effect a woman could be experiencing both types of stress.
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Last edited by lcpiper; February 21, 2013 at 02:35 PM.
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Old February 21, 2013, 02:44 PM   #46
Vanya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcpiper
He was saying if the woman's claim was legitimate then abortion was acceptable, but now if her claim was false and illegitimate.
No, that's not what he says.

I can't think of a better way to get this thread shut down than to bring abortion into it, but in the statement you quote, he says very clearly that even in the "unlikely" event that a woman gets pregnant from a "legitimate" rape, abortion should not be an option: "...punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child." [My emphasis.]

He's saying pretty explicitly that if a woman gets pregnant after being raped, the chances are that it wasn't really rape, and that even if it was, abortion isn't acceptable.

Quote:
What the man had such a hard time saying was that under extreme stress women frequently will not conceive.
And he should have had an even harder time saying it, because it is false.

It is, quite literally, a medieval belief.
The false belief that pregnancy can almost never result from rape was widespread for centuries. In Europe from medieval times well into the 1700s a man could use a woman's pregnancy as a legal defense, "proving" that he could not have raped her...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_from_rape
And the study you cited is irrelevant, because it looked only at long-term stress, not at the immediate, short-term, effects of stressful events. The participants were women who had been trying unsuccessfully to get pregnant. (And the markers they used are correlates of stress; there's no evidence of what the actual mechanism is. It's that correlation vs. causation thing again...)

(Apologies to the mods, but I'm unable to let this pass. I won't pursue it.)
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Last edited by Vanya; February 21, 2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old February 21, 2013, 02:55 PM   #47
pax
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< Moderator Hat >

No more about abortion, please, or the circumstances under which women can or cannot conceive. Thanks.

< / Moderator Hat >

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Old February 21, 2013, 03:53 PM   #48
lcpiper
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Vanya, you caught my mistake prior to my edit, I was QCing my work while you were helping me

Anyway, to bring the OP's topic back on line I think the OP is correct and that the gun debate is about a lot more then just the guns. I believe this is just one battle out of many that will be fought between people who cherish freedom and those who want to live their lives in the Government womb. Everything in life scares them and in their fear they must organize and act to "make the world a better place".

I know this is going to sound bad, I can't help it, it's just the way I see it. I think much of this is simply a product of a fundamental shift from being a Patriarchal to a Matriarchal society. The game is changing from Wolves and Sheep to Bees and Ants.

I'll be back, I need to go have my Drone hat made.
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Old February 21, 2013, 04:19 PM   #49
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NRA membership has gone up 500,000 since Dec 2012, this shows the average person is beginning to see what we see. But the politicians continue to push their left wing agendas and the new members are not as vocal as we need them to be.
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Old February 21, 2013, 04:26 PM   #50
Skadoosh
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I think much of this is simply a product of a fundamental shift from being a Patriarchal to a Matriarchal society. The game is changing from Wolves and Sheep to Bees and Ants.
Now that is an interesting theory...
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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