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Old February 12, 2013, 09:22 AM   #51
Netto
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I am impressed with somethings that I just read here.

Winchester73, if I take your opinion seriously, I could also say that pistols like HK P7 M8/M13 or Walthers P88 also are not good because they are no longer manufactured, right?

In a globalized economy, there is something called manufacturing cost, which became unprofitable firearms manufactured by forging and machining, such as Python.

In addition, the North American shooter, unlike the European, not acquires firearms based only in quality, but primarily based on cost benefit.

All I can say is the during heyday of "Bullseye" matches in UIT -now called International Sporting Shooting Federation - ISSF, the Colt revolvers ruled. They simply shot better than the Smiths.

The blind as those who will not see.

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Old February 12, 2013, 10:51 AM   #52
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I own Colt and S&W revolvers. I love the Colts, nothing like them but the S&W guns shoot better for me. I shoot the model 19 better than the Python and I do better with a 586 than a Trooper. The Colts are classier but they won't run with the S&W on the range.
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Old February 12, 2013, 11:32 AM   #53
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Quote:
I could also say that pistols like HK P7 M8/M13 or Walthers P88 also are not good because they are no longer manufactured, right?
Not what I said. Please read for comprehension. I was stating that anything that is the "Rolls Royce" of revolvers would not have voluntarily been removed from a companies production line. Those guns you mention were never hyped up half as much as a Python, although of course, they're nice guns, AFAIK. You can come up with any excuse you want for Pythons, but the "Rolls Royce" credit trumps any cost or manufacturing issue that you can come up with. In other words, if the "Rolls Royce" rep was true, then there would be a dedicated group of buyers, and many others saving their pennies and dimes to have something that is the "best". The only thing left to explain what happened to the Python is that the claim "Rolls Royce" is false, and a stretch, to say the least. When you look at it that way, you can understand why they didn't sell as well later, and why Colt stopped making them. Also, in a lesser respect, why they were more money to build. Partly it was due to hand fitting, and partly due to the antiquated design. If they would have modernized it some, perhaps they could have overcame that issue. Since they didn't even explore that option, one must wonder why Colt would make this blatantly "wrong" choice to discontinue the best DA revolver ever made.

Think about other things which are to some the best in their field: Mercedes, Rolex, high end shotguns such as Perazzi, Randall knives, and the list goes on. What do all of these things have in common? High end, expensive, and STILL IN PRODUCTION. These companies and products lived up to their hype / rep, and so their companies still can profit from manufacturing the said item. I don't mind if you like your Python, but I take exception to false claims based on inexperience or misunderstandings. Afterall, the myth became strong partly due to people repeating claims such as yours, which have very little evidence to back them up.

Quote:
In a globalized economy, there is something called manufacturing cost, which became unprofitable firearms manufactured by forging and machining, such as Python.

In addition, the North American shooter, unlike the European, not acquires firearms based only in quality, but primarily based on cost benefit.
Thats just a wives tale, an internet based excuse, and a farce to say the least. If the gun was the best available, the customers at the time would have agreed with you. You are basically saying that while the Python was in production, no one knew how great it was, and then, like finding a fossil in the earth, we "discovered" after the extinction, that they were the greatest. A lot of logical holes there, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
All I can say is the during heyday of "Bullseye" matches in UIT -now called International Sporting Shooting Federation - ISSF, the Colt revolvers ruled. They simply shot better than the Smiths.
I think you are forgetting about all of the people who disliked the colt stacking trigger, which goes back to the secrets behind the Python myth. With the amount of different S&W models, the model 17, 14 and 27 and even the 52 were well represented. Some people shot Pythons better, and some shot Smiths better.

Quote:
The blind as those who will not see.
If I'm blind to this issue, then you sure have a lot more explaining to do, to say the least. Repeating Uncle Billy, or something someone posted on a forum about a Python their cousin had doesn't add anything to the thread.

Did you ever notice it sure seems like many people who criticize the Colt Python are people who own many revolvers, and who are usually well experienced with revolvers. In contrast, many people who say the Python is the top own a glock and remington 870, and have no experience with S&W, Dan Wesson, etc. Is that a coincidence?

Here is a thread on the Colt forum about the Python. Many Colt fans seem to agree it doesn't live up to its hype. So think about it, even Colt collectors see a disconnect between a Python and its rep. Even on the colt forum, the Python was criticized. Does that register to anyone?

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt...od-python.html
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Old February 12, 2013, 05:01 PM   #54
Netto
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Winchester73, I have some thoughts about what you wrote:

"Think about other things which are to some the best in their field: Mercedes, Rolex, high end shotguns such as Perazzi, Randall knives, and the list goes on. What do all of these things have in common? High end, expensive, and STILL IN PRODUCTION. These companies and products lived up to their hype / rep, and so their companies still can profit from manufacturing the said item. I don't mind if you like your Python, but I take exception to false claims based on inexperience or misunderstandings. Afterall, the myth became strong partly due to people repeating claims such as yours, which have very little evidence to back them up."

Except for Perazzi, all brands mentioned by you were forced by the market to outsource part of their production components, to remain competitive in the market. An example of this is the Randall, which is made by a team of craftsmen, and not by Bo Randall. These knives are not considered authentic Randall knives for collectors.

"Thats just a wives tale, an internet based excuse, and a farce to say the least. If the gun was the best available, the customers at the time would have agreed with you. You are basically saying that while the Python was in production, no one knew how great it was, and then, like finding a fossil in the earth, we "discovered" after the extinction, that they were the greatest. A lot of logical holes there, wouldn't you say?"

Colts Pythons have always had a higher cost than its direct competitors. And as the average American citizen is based on cost benefit, the products of competition were more attractive.

"I think you are forgetting about all of the people who disliked the colt stacking trigger, which goes back to the secrets behind the Python myth. With the amount of different S&W models, the model 17, 14 and 27 and even the 52 were well represented. Some people shot Pythons better, and some shot Smiths better".


This is not a personal opinion, that is a fact, which is supported by the results of the Olympics from the beginning of the century. In the overwhelming majority of competitions governed by former UIT, the Colt revolvers were winners.

"If I'm blind to this issue, then you sure have a lot more explaining to do, to say the least. Repeating Uncle Billy, or something someone posted on a forum about a Python their cousin had doesn't add anything to the thread."
"Did you ever notice it sure seems like many people who criticize the Colt Python are people who own many revolvers, and who are usually well experienced with revolvers. In contrast, many people who say the Python is the top own a glock and remington 870, and have no experience with S&W, Dan Wesson, etc. Is that a coincidence?"

You adopt the same strategy of cultural Marxism: looking disqualify the person instead of presenting counterarguments. Do not worry, I've left the childhood a long time. Besides Police, I'm a collector of firearms in Brazil, taking my collection more than 150 firearms, including more than 40 revolvers. I am also a hunter, going once year hunting in Africa.

"Here is a thread on the Colt forum about the Python. Many Colt fans seem to agree it doesn't live up to its hype. So think about it, even Colt collectors see a disconnect between a Python and its rep. Even on the colt forum, the Python was criticized. Does that register to anyone?"

There are two errors presented in this discussion: first, to compare products from different epochs - before and after World War II - where the concepts of consumption followed a different light; The second, most collectors in this discussion is certainly composed of middle-aged people, so it is natural to consider their products as superior.

Netto

Last edited by Netto; February 12, 2013 at 05:08 PM.
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Old February 12, 2013, 05:29 PM   #55
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I don't know if you are correct or not about the Olympics and Colt revolvers used. But it is not worth "discussing". I personally prefer Colts over Smiths but Colt did not fill every void. S&W made excellent revolvers and continues to manufacture excellent revolvers.

Quote:
Except for Perazzi, all brands mentioned by you were forced by the market to outsource part of their production components, to remain competitive in the market. An example of this is the Randall, which is made by a team of craftsmen, and not by Bo Randall. These knives are not considered authentic Randall knives for collectors.
Bo Randall died. Randall knives are still collected. He has had a team of knife makers working for the company for years. Bo Randall when he was alive did not make every knife. A fair comparison are knives made by Bob Dozier. He does not make every knife and probably only makes a small portion of today's production personally. But they are still "Doziers" and have a very good reputation.
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Old February 12, 2013, 06:18 PM   #56
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I got to examine a 5 screw 44 today. In my opinion it is not in the same class as a python or a registered magnum for that matter.

Others bidding think otherwise.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=328783770
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Old February 12, 2013, 07:34 PM   #57
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I love my S&W M57s. Kcub, you still looking for that 44 mag? I consider my 8 3/8" M57 the finest revolver I own and I have owned many and continue to own quite a few. And yes, I like it better than the couple Pythons I have owned. Frankly, my Trooper Mark III is my favorite 357.

Colt Snakes? Got more than a couple. Great guns, but Smiths are pretty good too especially the M17, M18, M19, M27, M29, and M57's.

I sold off a 5.5" Ruger Redhawk in 41 mag recently and I keep thinking... maybe I should have kept it. I seldom have any remorse when I sell a gun, but this one was hard to find in the first place.
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Old February 12, 2013, 07:41 PM   #58
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Seems to me that back in the 80's, when I first started pricing guns, Pythons sold for considerably more than M27, M28, and M586 Smiths; Pythons definitely had a following prior to the end of production.

Pythons also showed up regularly in movies and on TV. The first one I remember noticing was Robert Stack's, on Strike Force.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:54 AM   #59
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I enjoy reading the posts on the Python. there is allot of history and good information. I learned quite a bit. I have a half a dozen Colts and like them very much. Their demise was cost, $ plain and simple.


The number of people who keep dragging S&W into the Colt conversation doesn't pertain to the question. Ok indirectly, but I sense a "chip" on their shoulders. Those conversations distracts from the theme of this post and I think they are out of place.

I do own more S&W and prefer them but if I want to talk about it, I will start my own thread, which is what others should do, stop mixing apples and oranges. :-)
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:18 AM   #60
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I'd love to have an 8 3/8" 57 and I love the .41.

I was just looking at the 5 screw 44 because it was local and I've never held one. And there is no such animal as a 5 screw (or Colt) .41 magnum.
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Old February 14, 2013, 05:49 PM   #61
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Colt should have made the Anaconda in 41 mag. I suspect both of us would own at least one of them.
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Old February 14, 2013, 08:27 PM   #62
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I wonder if a distributor offered Colt 500K for a special run of 500 .41 Anacondas would it get their attention.

They could double or triple their money right quickly.
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Old February 14, 2013, 08:54 PM   #63
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Interesting points Netto. It appears that we will have to agree to disagree on the matter. I applaud you for getting a gun collection that large where you live, it must have been somewhat hard. What types of guns do you collect? Anything specific? How much is a Python or a good S&W down there?

Quote:
This is not a personal opinion, that is a fact, which is supported by the results of the Olympics from the beginning of the century. In the overwhelming majority of competitions governed by former UIT, the Colt revolvers were winners.
But of course Netto, that is pretty common knowledge. But lets not count the New Service target, shooting master or officers model in the convo. I think most of these match victories would be with one of those revolvers, or perhaps a post war OMM, rather than a Python. The python only came around in 1955, so anything won with a Colt before then is irrelevant to Pythons. I like pre war Colts better, so maybe you misunderstood me. I like a pre war colt a lot actually.

Quote:
You adopt the same strategy of cultural Marxism: looking disqualify the person instead of presenting counterarguments.
Not really, I just noticed a pattern of experience + large revolver collection = not crazy about Pythons. I'm not saying it disqualifies anything you said, but I also must ask, why would experienced people overwhelmingly hold one opinion on the matter?

Quote:
I got to examine a 5 screw 44 today. In my opinion it is not in the same class as a python or a registered magnum for that matter.

Others bidding think otherwise.
So can you elaborate on this? What puts the Python in a different class or what puts the 44 mag in a different class than a Python? I hope you're not going to say "fit and finish" IMO, the Smith is just as "Royal" as anything Colt ever made.

Btw, the gun in the auction is very scarce, esp with the box and accessories. The price is its "collectible" value just like that of a Python. You can get a great shooter for much less. Rest assured, it will go much higher than it is now. Right now, to buy it for that, would actually be a steal. IMO it will cross $4000 and if it $5000 I would not be surprised. My first 5 screw 44 mag is a 6.5in and I would want much more than that, without the box, for sure. Here is one that sold a few months back, 6.5in in box:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=320259440
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Old February 14, 2013, 09:13 PM   #64
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For example, my reg mag hammer feels smooth and cocks very easily. The same goes for the triple lock and the pythons. The post war smiths hammers are not as well finished out.

It's like closing the door on a german car vs an american car.
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Old February 14, 2013, 09:21 PM   #65
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Well you do know that the RM and triple lock, are pre war long action guns, whereas the 44 mag, and most post war S&W have the short action, which decreased lock time, to increase accuracy? You know that right? They are supposed to be different. The gun that you handled could have just needed lubed or something. Unless you take it apart, you really can't comment on the internals and the quality or lack thereof internally. I like the feel of the pre war action, but I never shot them side by side. A collector friend of mine informed me that many pre war long actions were converted privately to shorter actions for the accuracy benefits.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:09 AM   #66
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I have hopes that metal 3d printing can someday bring the snakes (and many other "extinct" guns) back to life.

The guys printing AR-15 lowers are cute, but I don't care about stuff I can buy right now..... well after the current craziness dies down.

Imagine a gunsmith with a 3d scanner and a 3d printer. They could scan any gun and use the 3d printer to reproduce it. Now THAT would be something to get excited about.

Here's hoping it happens soon.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:44 AM   #67
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I'm glad you like those 5 screws, I do too, but only a fraction of what the market price is. No revolver is more accurate than my python that I know of, and many other python owners agree.
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Old February 16, 2013, 08:40 PM   #68
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Quote:
No revolver is more accurate than my python that I know of, and many other python owners agree.
What vintage is your Python? How many do you have? Have you shot them from a ransom rest?

I feel about Pythons as you do about 5 screws. The demand for Pythons is crazy when you think about it. They're definitely not worth the going rate as shooters. Of course however, as a gun collector myself, the rare and interesting variants interest me. Here is one of the Python variants I would like to own, a first generation Python. This one is also a first year gun, 1XX. My friend got one a while back and there is one literally down the street from me, but the guy doesn't want to sell at this time. You probably saw that auction about a year ago for a 2 digit Python on gunbroker? Crazy money, but a great gun as well.

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Old February 19, 2013, 08:27 PM   #69
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I own 3 pythons. The oldest is a 6" 1979. I also own a 4" and a 2-1/2".

I was handling my nickel model 27-2 this evening and I think I'll sell it to someone who likes it better than I do.
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Old February 19, 2013, 09:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
I was handling my nickel model 27-2 this evening and I think I'll sell it to someone who likes it better than I do.
Well, keep me in mind for it if you wish to sell.
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Old February 19, 2013, 10:01 PM   #71
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kcub
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I'm glad you like those 5 screws, I do too, but only a fraction of what the market price is. No revolver is more accurate than my python that I know of, and many other python owners agree.


Might be some Dan Wesson owners disagree with you, respectfully.

Steve
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Old February 20, 2013, 10:59 PM   #72
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The Dan Wesson was close to the Python in accuracy, but unfortunately the quality fluctuated wildly because they were in and out of bankruptcy so many times that you couldn't be assured you'd get a good one.

When they were up to par, a good DW could shoot as well as a Python, but your chances of getting a good one were uncertain at best.
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Old February 21, 2013, 07:20 AM   #73
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Smith & Wesson, Colt, Dan Wesson and many others have had QC issues at one time or another. All three also have produced revolvers that some owners will claim are the nost accurate. I've never had a 'bad' Dan Wesson, in fact my favorite one is a Palmer gun which according to internet lore is the one to avoid. I think the DW's proved their accuracy in the Silhoette world.
I understand loyalty to all the brands. My remark to the Python being the most accurate revolver was just that there are other brands that in the right hands will be just as accurate for their owners. I own multiple Smith's and DW's. I've shot Pythons and liked them but can't afford one.

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