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Old February 19, 2013, 01:55 PM   #26
eldermike
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I would say that anyone who has a remington factory trigger thats below 3-4 lbs has a rifle that exceeds design intent and limits, no matter if it was shipped that way or adjusted later. The force necessary to hold the trigger in position as the sear is dropped on it while it's coming off safe, is critical. If it every fails to cock on closing it's an accident looking for a place to happen.


I love 700's and Timney triggers.
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Old February 19, 2013, 02:30 PM   #27
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X% of units and is a danger. I did forget to the put that in there. My bad.

Reynolds357.

A: Don't tell me what I do and don't want. That's for me to decide.

B: No one ever said the 700s that had this issue were 100 years old, or set up some sort of expectation that they should. I don't know where that statement even came from.

ScottRiqui.

I wasn't aware that it was so soon. I had heard of recalls for childrens toys and such for so long, I assumed it was mandated by some sort of organization, be it government or otherwise, that performed safety checks.
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Old February 19, 2013, 03:00 PM   #28
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Has anyone here had an accidental discharge from a Remington 700 because of mechanical failure of the trigger system?
I saw one happen this past deer season. We got back to the truck (2 friends and myself) and proceeded to unload our rifles. I happened to be looking at my friend and watched the rifle go off. Needless to say we were all surprised, especially him. This was only his second hunt and he was pretty shook up. He maintained that his finger was not on the trigger, and that when he flipped the safety off the rifle fired. So we unloaded it and tried to duplicate it and guess what? We could with alarming regularity, the firing pin would drop about every other time when the safety was released. This was a new phenomenon, he'd had the rifle for a year or two without issue.

This was an older 700, my friend mailed it back to Remington and they sent it back with a letter saying they identified the problem and fixed it. He had ringing and pain in his left ear the remainder of the hunt, although I think things are basically back to normal. Luckily he was practicing safe unloading practice and the rifle was pointed the hell away from everyone.
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Old February 19, 2013, 04:48 PM   #29
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Ive seen most of the videos on the subject. Never do they ask the owner of the rifle if the trigger has been modified or if proper maintenance was performed on the rifle. I know in several cases the rifles were in poor shape, most likely cleaned a handful of times over their life. My memory fails me here but i believe at least 1 rifle involved in a controversial AD was tested and an AD couldnt be replicated. And after all, theres a lot of people locked up that will say, "yes i pointed a loaded gun at somebody but i did not pull the trigger. It just went off." Anyone in the business of making deadly weapons generally has a good litigious team. Probably easier to name the manufacturers that have NOT had a lawsuit against them for their triggers.

PS i have 1 Rem 700, never had a problem, hunt w/it all the time, the trigger is at about 2.5lbs. Also i believe it is a 1998 but cant confirm at the moment.
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Old February 19, 2013, 07:10 PM   #30
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Shamrock, if you want the government to have recall authority in the firearms industry, you are extremely un-informed about the long term ramifications it would bring. If you choose to take offense to that, so be it.
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Old February 19, 2013, 11:32 PM   #31
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Quote:
MSNBC did a documentary on this issue.
I would not put a lot of stock in MSNBC's "documentary" on this issue. Or any other for that matter. Does anyone remember NBC putting explosive charges on Chevrolet pickups to show that their gas tanks would explode?
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Old February 20, 2013, 12:36 AM   #32
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NO,Ive owned a 1963 700 in 300WM for 30 years never a problem.
Can it happen hell ya.Known of a few other rifles firing before the person behind it was ready also. Light triggers are Dangerous no matter the make.
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Old February 20, 2013, 08:23 AM   #33
FredFreakoutski
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My wife bought one of these Remingtons about 5 years ago. Is there anything a local gunsmith can do to fix the problem? I don't want to sent it into the company.
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Old February 20, 2013, 08:53 AM   #34
eldermike
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Fred,

A good gunsmith can insepect your wifes rifle and give you an opinion on the safety of the trigger system.

He could also show you how to test your rifle and how to look through the sight hole on the side of the trigger to witness sear engagement and if the triggger spring has been backed off to much by improper adjustment. This is where this issue of firing when the safe is pushed forward comes from. People back off on the wrong screw, they take all the spring preload off the trigger while checking the trigger with a tension gage. When they reach a desired force they call it adjusted. What they failed to do was think about how this trigger works. When the safety if applied it lifts the sear off the trigger which now has zero spring pressure to hold it in place. When the safety is pushed forward the trigger moves out of the way.......because that's what they adjusted it to do.

If it's adjusted as it should be and the springs are ok, it will be safe. IMHO

I just took a remington SPS trigger off and replaced it with a Timney trigger. The remington trigger was totally safe. In fact it was about 8lbs with at least 1/16 inch sear engagement. I believe you could toss that rifle off a 10 story building loaded with the safety off and it would not fire.

It's common for remington triggers to be adjusted. I also think it's common for them to be adjusted in an unsafe manner.
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Old February 20, 2013, 09:05 AM   #35
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I've owned at least seven different model 700's, love how they look and how well they shoot---none of the ones I've had demonstrated this trigger or safety problem--the one I have now, the one I'll keep, a brown laminate in 06will not accidentally drop the firing pin when disengaging the safety or cycling the action--- I bought this gun new about 7 or 8 months ago--the 700 is really a great rifle, well made, usually very accurate and this problem they had with the trigger group sounds like it has been rectified with the newer design: do this--before filling out the paperwork to take possesion of a new 700, cycle the action a number of times, switch the safety on and off, rifle pointed at the floor and empty of course---if the firing pin drops for any reason and the trigger has not been touched, don't buy it----how simple is that ?? not saying Remington is perfect, but as an avid 700 owner, it seems that with the amount of 700's sold, the percentage that have had this problem would seem very small---not saying this problem doesn't exist, just saying every 700 I've owned has been totally dependable mechanically----
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Old February 20, 2013, 09:12 AM   #36
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Another point, people have been shot becauase of this? The person holding the gun, pointed at someone while they are playing with the action or moving the safety, shouldn't even be allowed to use a gun -- they are completely ignoring the first rule of gun handling, point it in a safe direction no matter what your doing with it---wanted to vent on this point, thanks for listening----
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Old February 20, 2013, 09:45 AM   #37
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Don't buy any Japanese-made automobiles; they have been PROVEN to have been involved in numerous accidents, through no fault of the operators! Many lawsuits bare this to be true. Even more owners will come forth and swear to it, if you publish a Class Action Lawsuit, with the promise of financial compensation for pain, suffering, and loss of income!

As has been said over and over and over, it is the operator's responsibility to properly maintain and operate ALL mechanical devices. When this is done to the best of your ability (and yes, you are responsible for receiving the appropriate level of training in maint. & operation), the tool or implement is, after all, just a mechanical tool. You alone are responsible for it's performance.

I've owned about two dozen 700s over the last 40 years, and at least three of them have seen thousands of rounds fired from each. The only negligent discharge I can recall was caused by my misplaced, cold, and shivering trigger-finger. Mia culpa.
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Old February 20, 2013, 10:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
I would not put a lot of stock in MSNBC's "documentary" on this issue. Or any other for that matter. Does anyone remember NBC putting explosive charges on Chevrolet pickups to show that their gas tanks would explode?
Talk about shooting the messenger! MSNBC consulted various firearms experts and did not conduct their own tests. They reported numerous lawsuits lost by Rem and settlements paid by Rem because of the triggers. MSNBC isn't the problem with the rifle.

Given the number of court cases lost and latter suits Rem just settled out of court instead of choosing to fight (and usually lose), the problem is real.

Note that the suits stem from injured and don't take into account all the non-injury incidents.

Can you otherwise document that MSNBC did wrong in the report or that anything that they reported was not actually true? Walker himself talked about problems with the trigger he designed that is at the crux of the problem. The court cases can be verified. So what in the report was fabricated as you imply?

And NO, NBC did not put "explosive charges" in the trucks. Results were rigged with model rocket engines, not explosives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC
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Old February 20, 2013, 10:43 AM   #39
eldermike
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You might have been injured by a remington trigger and not even know it. Call this number.........for a free evaluation of your case.
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Old February 20, 2013, 12:56 PM   #40
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Quote:
And NO, NBC did not put "explosive charges" in the trucks. Results were rigged with model rocket engines, not explosives.
Okay, I didn't remember exactly how they rigged it, but rigged is still rigged.

As I remember they tried unsuccessfully to make a Chevrolet gas tank explode and couldn't so they used an external incendiary device.

And I didn't say Remington didn't have a problem. Although I once had a Remington 700 and had no problems with it whatsoever.

I just look very critically at any thing our so called main stream media says especially when it comes to guns.
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Old February 20, 2013, 01:45 PM   #41
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I own a number of Remington bolt rifles: 700s, 600, 660 in numberous calibers but fortunately never had an AD occur. It only takes one for a tragedy to happen. I am going to take my rifles to my 'smith and have him thoroughly clean and check the trigger mechanisms with this problem in mind. I usually don't have trigger jobs done on my guns unless the pulls are way out of normal--and I don't ever go super light when I do. This may be a small percentage of Remingtons that malfunction but I'm going to be proactive.
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Old February 20, 2013, 01:57 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Talk about shooting the messenger! MSNBC consulted various firearms experts and did not conduct their own tests. They reported numerous lawsuits lost by Rem and settlements paid by Rem because of the triggers. MSNBC isn't the problem with the rifle.

Given the number of court cases lost and latter suits Rem just settled out of court instead of choosing to fight (and usually lose), the problem is real.
Businesses settle meritless court cases all the time. It is a business decision based on the fact the settling generally costs less than defending themselves, even if they win. Lawyers and litigation is expensive.

The only "expert" they contacted is a professional plaintiff's witness for ambulance chasers. If you watch the Remington rebuttal to the CNBC piece, thy show the same expert state under oath that it was only a theory, and he had never been able to actually get it to happen. The "Remington Insider" they showed worked at an ammunition plant, and had nothing to do with firearms.

They show some video of some unknown dude in generic Camo with a black ball cap and blurred face with a clearly unsafe rifle, but no information on the condition of the rifle, what had been done to it, or what the Remington found when they inspected it, (which they probably didn't, because it was most likely not in the condition it left the factory).

Any nitwit with a jewelers screwdriver could probably make their gun do the same thing, that does not automatically make it Remington's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Note that the suits stem from injured and don't take into account all the non-injury incidents.
Even if the trigger really was defective, all of the injuries could have been avoided had the owners practiced basic firearms safety and gun handling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Can you otherwise document that MSNBC did wrong in the report or that anything that they reported was not actually true? Walker himself talked about problems with the trigger he designed that is at the crux of the problem. The court cases can be verified. So what in the report was fabricated as you imply?
The whole interview, all Walker really said was he advocated for a firing pin block on the safety, and Remington did not do it because of cost.

The Walker interview portion is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iis8nxGl-hQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNBC
"his own memos, obtained by CNBC show he repeatedly raised concernes about the guns he designed"
Well, not exactly. They showed 3 memos from when he worked at Remington, all are posted online.

The first advocates adding a trigger block to the safety, and what that would involve, in the manufacturing process:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Sec...Rem_Doc_09.pdf

They also say that the cost would be 5 1/2 cents per gun, which is certainly minimal, but unit cost and the cost of making the change are not the same thing. They do not mention tooling and setup costs, and depending on where they were in the design/manufacturing process, this could be a substantial setup cost.

I agree that a trigger block is a good thing to have on a safety, but that does not mean that a safety without a trigger block is unsafe.

The memo they show like it is some sort of smoking gun:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNBC
As early as 1946, with the gun still in the testing stage, Walker writes about a theoretical unsafe condition involving the safety
The memo they show in the piece is here.

Yeah, he did. Which HE FIXED. The last line of the memo says "this change will be incorporated in the drawing as soon as tool procurement is completed" Now why wouldn't they mention that?

The third they show in the "he repeatedly..." section isn't even from Walker, it is signed by a guy named Leek, and all it says is some parts were out of "out of design limits".
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Sec...Rem_Doc_03.pdf

It does not say the out of design parts were used, or what was done with the information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
And NO, NBC did not put "explosive charges" in the trucks. Results were rigged with model rocket engines, not explosives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC
Right, because rocket engines are a much more fair representation of an actual auto accident.

NBC has a record of playing pretty loose with the facts when it comes to firearms.
http://www.nraila.org/138269

I just assume at this point anything they say is BS.
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Old February 20, 2013, 02:26 PM   #43
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Well before the documentary, a Graybeard I know told me that way back in the early 50's, two hardware store new Rem 721's fired into the floorboards of a car, when the safeties were released.

On another forum a poster stated that a woman in El Paso had been killed, when an owner of a Rem 700 got home and unloaded his rifle in the driveway. The rifle discharged upon safety release, the bullet went way up, and way down, killing the woman who apparently was outside on the lawn.

The reason these things have triggers is so you can control when it goes off. Accidentaly discharges due to defective designs will kill people.
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Old February 20, 2013, 02:55 PM   #44
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I would never admit that I walked all the way from my tree stand to my truck with my rifle loaded and on safe. Why would you do that? I would not hunt with folks that got in my truck with a loaded rifle on safe, why would you do that?. How is it possible to arrive at your home and then decide it's now time to unload my deer rifle......I see the problem, its not remington.

If I owned a factory remington with it's original trigger and knew it had never been "tinkered" with I would not worry about it. But I also don't load my rifle until I am in my stand and it's unloaded before I climb down the tree.
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Old February 20, 2013, 03:10 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slamfire
Well before the documentary, a Graybeard I know told me that way back in the early 50's, two hardware store new Rem 721's fired into the floorboards of a car, when the safeties were released.

On another forum a poster stated that a woman in El Paso had been killed, when an owner of a Rem 700 got home and unloaded his rifle in the driveway. The rifle discharged upon safety release, the bullet went way up, and way down, killing the woman who apparently was outside on the lawn.
There is a recognized problem with early Remington 700 Triggers that Remington will fix (If I remember correctly), involving rifles that could be "tricked" into firing by putting the safety lever placed in between "safe" and "fire" positions (i.e, not actually on safe), the trigger is then pulled in this condition and the rifle goes off when the safety lever is moved to the "fire".

This isn't a huge problem on it's own, but compounded with the pre 1982 700 trigger that locked the bolt closed when the safety is on it could become one. You had to take the safety off to unload the rifle. An estimated 1% of the rifles sold before 1982 could have this problem.

This was also fixed 30 years ago.

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf
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Old February 20, 2013, 03:36 PM   #46
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i own 19 Remington model 700, 721 and 722 rifles. Not one of them has ever gone bang when it was not supposed to go bang.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:09 PM   #47
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I would never admit that I walked all the way from my tree stand to my truck with my rifle loaded and on safe. Why would you do that?
I guess you never hunt your way back to your truck? I don't sit in a treestand, but I hunt the whole time I'm hunting, whether I'm headed towards or away from my truck.

Rifle gets unloaded BEFORE it goes back in the truck however.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:26 PM   #48
eldermike
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I hunt in a county where you have to be 10 feet up to use a rifle. But even if I did hunt my way back to the truck I would drop the first round back onto the follower and lower the bolt on an empty chamber. I can load a round if I need one.

Every accident I can remember hearing of took place at the "truck", or crossing a fence of falling down while walking or at the house. Hunting is safe, but walking in dark woods with a loaded hair triggered rifle is not safe IMHO.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:27 PM   #49
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I guess you never hunt your way back to your truck? I don't sit in a treestand, but I hunt the whole time I'm hunting, whether I'm headed towards or away from my truck.
Right, in fact the last hog I got was on the way back in after 5 hours in the stand, and only about 200 yards or so from my vehicle.
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Old February 20, 2013, 04:34 PM   #50
huntinaz
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Every accident I can remember hearing of took place at the "truck", or crossing a fence of falling down while walking or at the house. Hunting is safe, but walking in dark woods with a loaded hair triggered rifle is not safe IMHO.
I agree that hunting is safe... and that I do most of my hunting while walking around the woods with a loaded rifle. If it's dark then yeah, I'd probably be unloaded. I don't have a rifle in my hands when I cross a fence so that's not an issue.

The safety I value most is the one between my ears, and has nothing to do with whatever the rifle has.
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