The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 12, 2013, 02:29 PM   #26
Sher Khan
Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 30
After Action Review?

I think it would be very helpful if you could find the time to provide us with an After Action Review following your panel session. How did it go in general? What points do you think you made most effectively? Which points were not understood, or not well-received? What would you recommend to others who might participate in similar sessions? I think we are in for a long contest, and will need to draw on all the experience and knowledge, as well as passion, of our folks as we confront the opposition on various fronts. I'll appreciate reading what you can provide.
Sher Khan is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 02:49 PM   #27
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Wear a T-Shirt with a really big bulls-eye on it. It's symbolic on so many levels.

First, the schools' gun-free zone has now made you a target.

They have you up there to be a target. Whatever you say is going to be used against you.

Look, it may not be this bad but it might be worse. How will you handle them trying to snipe you with statistics that you don't have the resources to verify or refute at hand.

People do not want to have a discussion. They just want whatever it is they want. If they want you up there, just someone "off the street" to face off against their pro-gun control Sheriffand people with "Dr. in front of their names", then yes, you should get that shirt. Cause what they want is a target to snipe at. and one guy's 1-2 minutes is not equal to 4 other panel members' combined 4-8 minutes.


I hope it doesn't go this way but keep it in the back of your mind.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 02:59 PM   #28
I'vebeenduped
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Location: AZ
Posts: 200
Insist that "assault weapons" is a political term. Select fire weapons are already against the law for the vast majority of civilians to own. We use semi-automatic rifles. One pull of the trigger for one round, the same action as most handguns which are not being disputed.
__________________
The natural state of man, the way G‑d created us, is to be happy.
Look at children and you will see
I'vebeenduped is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 03:12 PM   #29
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,974
I think we concede too much when we define tyranny as being solely the result of an oppressive government. Do you think the good people living in poor sections of major cities feel tyrannized by the gangs that rule the streets? Is there no need or right for those people to defend themselves and their loved ones against that type of tyranny?

I am also struck by the fact that the "rational" discussion of "reasonable" firearm restrictions does not include the human cost that will be paid for any restriction on access to firearms. The most aggressive gun control advocates claim that firearms are used for self defense "only" around 60,000 times a year; that is still over four times as often as they are used to take the life of another. The Centers for Disease Control, usually no friend of the second amendment, estimates that intruders were frightened away by an armed residence of the home after being seen by the householder approximately a half a million times a year (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9591354); even with the limitation of the intruder being actually seen by the resident, this scenario takes places around 40 times as often as a firearm-related murder. Gary Kleck's estimates of 2 to 2.5 million defensive firearm uses per year are frequently demeaned by gun control activists, but they have been published in peer-reviewed journals of criminology such as The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology and The Journal of Quantitative Criminology; his figures lead one to conclude that firearms are used for lawful self defense as much as 150 times as often as for murder.

It is neither reasonable nor just to assume that denying 60,000, or half a million, or two and a half million people access to effective self defense will not cost of human lives.
TailGator is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 07:41 AM   #30
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,307
How did it go?
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 09:10 AM   #31
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon642
Oh, and if they mock at the defense against tyranny aspect of the 2nd Amendment, bring up this tidbit:

Quote:
According to one estimate, just since last spring DHS has stockpiled more than 1.6 billion bullets, mainly .40 caliber and 9mm. That's sufficient firepower to shoot every American about five times. Including illegal immigrants.

To provide some perspective, experts estimate that at the peak of the Iraq war American troops were firing around 5.5 million rounds per month. At that rate, DHS is armed now for a 24-year Iraq war.

Read More At IBD: http://news.investors.com/politics-a...#ixzz2KfMabMEE
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
http://news.investors.com/politics-a...-purchases.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Demon
PS
As for repelling a foreign invader, remind them of Admiral Yamamoto's words. In short he said that invading the USA would be a disaster because there would be "a rifle behind each blade of grass".
Hopefully, the OP didn't use either of these arguments, since they're both internet fantasies.

If we're going to win the argument, we need to do it with real facts to counteract the emotion on the other side. Easily debunked conspiracy theories and quotes invented out of thin air do nothing to help.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 05:41 PM   #32
l98ster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2010
Location: Hopewell Junction, NY
Posts: 452
Living in NY, our rights are being trampled on even moreso than the rest of the country. I am an IPSC / IDPA / 3Gun shooter, or should I say, I used to be. I just got a letter from some of the clubs that I belong to saying that nobody is permitted to bring a mag of more than 10 rounds to the range. This effectively elimates 3 gun, and limited/open for IPSC.

If we use the current definition of semi automatic (1 pull, 1 bullet), than every handgun since the civil war is semi automatic (revolvers fit that description).

Just curious, while we law abiding citizens who pose no threat to society are scurrying around trying to understand the law and comply with it; how many criminals are doing the same????

-George
l98ster is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 12:47 PM   #33
WC145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2008
Location: Downeast Maine
Posts: 1,437
Thanks again to all of you for the ideas, links, and info. The forum was Tuesday night and it went really well. It was well attended and by far the majority of the audience were community members (the local fish and game club was well represented), there was only a hand full of students. I was surprised and pleased to find that the other panel members weren't a bunch of liberal witch hunters. The school superintendent was very reasonable and was frank about their security efforts and discussions, including armed security and armed school personnel. The pastor/counselor/college professor was pro-gun, knowledgeable about weapons, and teaches an ethics course in which all of his students feel that there is no need for more gun laws and that we would be better served by enforcing the ones we have now!! Even the social worker was pretty neutral on guns and emphasized the need for better funding for mental health care and the need for mental health and personality issues to be better recognized and for those people that need it to get better care. In fact the only person on the panel that really had anything anti to say was the sheriff!

To make a long story short I will highlight some of the things the sheriff had to say as well as the points I tried to make. At the end of this post I'll have a link to the archives page of the UMM website, they will have the video of the forum available there in a few days.

A number of people took advantage of the forum to go after the sheriff for the things that he'd said in the newpaper interviews. He was very wishy washy and back pedaled on most of his comments but he still stood by his personal feelings that we should have an "assault weapons" ban, only cops and military should have "assault weapons", it's too easy to get a CCW permit and should require more training, and if it an AWB will "save just one life" it's worth doing. He is against armed school personnel but for school resource officers (he used to be one) and says that we should legislate money for them. However, regardless of his personal feelings, he will enforce the law as written and won't do anything unconstitutional.

When I had opportunities to speak I emphasized the need for personal, familial, and community responsibility. I told the audience that they are the true first responders and would face the criminals before any LEOs and that they should be as well armed as the sheriff's deputies that will show up after the fact with their AR15s and 30rd mags. I agreed with the need for armed security in schools and suggested that instead of waiting to legislate money that will probably never be there, we look to our communities to take responsibility for our schools and children and ask LEOs (active and retired) to volunteer their time to act as school security. I told them that my kids go to the local elementary school and I'd be glad to give a few days a month and said that we have lots of LEOs with children and grandchildren going to our schools that feel the same way. I emphasized that we could have armed, experienced, law enforcement personnel on site in days rather than wait months or years for the state or federal government to act. I also reminded the sheriff that 4 states have constitutional carry and do not require CC permits and they have not seen any increase in gun crime since those laws were enacted. There was more but I'm not going to bore you with all the details. Suffice it to say that I actually got a nice round of applause at one point, I think the people were liking what I had to say.

So, I was nervous about speaking in front of all those people but I was confident because I'd prepared well (thanks in no small part to all of you) and I was able to make the points I had hoped to when I volunteered to do this. Also, I encourage all of you to get involved where you can and to act on your convictions, you'll feel better for it and might actually make a difference.

If you are interested in watching the video of the forum, go to this link - http://machias.edu/archived-videos - it should be up in a few days. If you do watch it please come back to this thread and let us know what you think.
__________________
“Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”
WC145 is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 02:33 PM   #34
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
WC145. I am happy this went well and that my cynical prophesy in fact, did not materialize.

Of all the things that may hopefully come out of these school shootings perhaps the best will simply be a realization that people need to start trusting other people more.

Trust the Police that they are not all crooked, bullying, incompetent jerks.

Trust Doctors, that they aren't just out to get all the money they can out of your insurance company.

Trust teachers, that they are there to watch over and help develop your children.

But it also means there can't be much leniency for those that violate our trust.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 05:04 PM   #35
amathis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Champlain Valley, Vermont
Posts: 158
Nice update!

It went much better than I would have expected!
amathis is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 06:29 PM   #36
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1,525
Good work!

I'm a little surprised but a lot heartened that so many of the folks were with you.
DaleA is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 10:14 PM   #37
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 1,799
Good update, and thank you for working on behalf of gun owners everywhere. We appreciate it.

Hopefully, your local chief of police is elected, and can be changed out now and then.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 05:32 PM   #38
sigmund
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2000
Location: Urbandale, Iowa
Posts: 346
Quote:
All cars are registered, taxed yearly and tagged. And, you must take a test and be licensed to drive a car. The antis will quickly point this out if you use the car analogy.
The courts have consistently ruled that driving on public roads is a privilege, not a right. You don't need all that stuff, or liability insurance, if you only drive your car on private property. A lot of maintenance vehicles on big airports are not licensed.
__________________
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you have not prepared properly.
sigmund is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 05:36 PM   #39
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
License and training for guns, this isn't about safety, this is lawyers thinking about more ways people can be sued or arrested so they make more money. They are just using the sympathetic to help them open up a new potential job market.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 05:42 PM   #40
smokiniron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2012
Location: Utah
Posts: 232
CHeck this link from Marlin Owners Forum

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/ge...questions.html

Lotsa' good stuff here.
__________________
"Figure Out What You Believe and STAND YOUR GROUND!"
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Lots of Cast Iron to Cook With...
and a few defensive firearms, too!
smokiniron is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 06:18 PM   #41
shouldazagged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Posts: 273
If you're asked to do that again, here's one you might get a chance to drop in:

When Kentucky finally mandated issuance of CC licenses (I don't like the term "permit") fourteen or fifteen years ago our Louisville newspaper, which had been bought by Gannett and was very anti-gun, shrieked to editorial high heaven. Innocent blood flowing in the streets, and so on.

After a year or so, they did a study that showed that concealed-carry license-holders were less likely than the general population to be arrested on any charge, not just gun-related offenses. It became very clear that those of us who legally own and carry firearms are pretty law-abiding folks.

The findings surprised hell out of them; but to their credit, they published the story.

Makes a pretty nice talking point.
__________________
"Don't let macho be your epitaph."
---Ed Lovette
shouldazagged is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 06:34 PM   #42
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
Quote:
After a year or so, they did a study that showed that concealed-carry license-holders were less likely than the general population to be arrested on any charge, not just gun-related offenses. It became very clear that those of us who legally own and carry firearms are pretty law-abiding folks.
I don't think the CHL permit really has much to do with it - I think it's more a matter of "law-abiding folks are pretty law-abiding".

When you look at CHL holders, you're looking at a subset of the entire population; one who generally haven't been convicted of felonies or domestic violence crimes, and who have not been committed to a mental health facility for treatment. That right there is going to eliminate a big source of criminal activity - repeat offenders and those who have previously been diagnosed with mental disorders.

I'd be curious to know how the arrest rate for CHL holders compares to the arrest rate of people who are eligible to have a CHL, but don't.
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 07:30 PM   #43
bbqbob51
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2005
Posts: 728
Good for you WC145

We need to work real hard articulating the pro 2A side of this argument. There is too much name calling and insults thrown about and not enough reasoned, measured and firm responses to the anti-gun people. What you did helps so much convincing the moderate undecided that we have the best ideas.
BTW, my Mom was from a little town in your neck of the woods, Addison. It's nice country there, just a little far away from everything. When my Mom was growing up in the 1920s-30s, Machias was the big city to visit.
bbqbob51 is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 11:53 AM   #44
WC145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2008
Location: Downeast Maine
Posts: 1,437
The video is finally available at this link if anyone is interested in watching - University of Maine at Machias | Archived Videos



Quote:
BTW, my Mom was from a little town in your neck of the woods, Addison. It's nice country there, just a little far away from everything. When my Mom was growing up in the 1920s-30s, Machias was the big city to visit.
bbqbob51 - I know Addison well, I work for the Town of Harrington, right next door.
__________________
“Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”
WC145 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12328 seconds with 9 queries