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Old February 13, 2013, 08:27 PM   #1
davery25
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Full length sizing without shoulder setback

Hi guys,

I have a k-31 swiss that i'm having trouble reloading for. I have redding FL dies and if i set it up to only set the shoulder back 0.002, the entire case isn't taken in by the die and much of the case web is left unsized. The 7.5x55 is highly tapered and that's cause difficult in chambering the cases.

Yes i have checked brass length.

If i size the entire case the shoulder gets set back 0.006 to 0.007 which is way too much.

is there some way to size the entire case while only setting the shoulder back 0.002?

Cheers in advance
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:17 PM   #2
30Cal
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Not with that die. It sounds like you need a small base die. It'd be worth giving the guys at Redding a call. They're pretty helpful.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:27 PM   #3
davery25
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I've sent them an email and waiting on their reply but figured i'd bring the question here too.

Will i just have to accept the excessive headspace and poor case life then?
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Old February 14, 2013, 03:27 PM   #4
243winxb
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The difference between 7 & 2 bump is not enough to cause a problem with the web area. The web, if expanded or to large in diameter, is because your loading to hot. The area sitting in the shell holder is never sized, as i am sure you know. I am guessing that a straight-pull bolt-action needs the .007" to close correctly.
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Old February 14, 2013, 04:33 PM   #5
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Run ram all the way to top of stroke. Run die down till it touches. Then take .005" feeler gage and back off die a bit, insert feeler between shell holder and die and run die down till it stops.

Run down lock ring and tighten it right there.
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:04 AM   #6
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"Full length sizing without shoulder setback"

Davery25, I am the only reloader that understands the question. There is no such thing as full length sizing without touching the shoulder with the die. You will hear 'it' over and over and over etc., you just gotta full length size the case like bench resters and long range shooters and self appointed experts.

I size cases from short chamber to cases that are longer than a field reject chamber, again, that could be 26 different length cases from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case, all with a press, die and shell holder and the companion to the press tool, the feeler gage. All 26 different length are under the heading of a specific caliber like the 30/06 or any caliber that has a full length sizer die that will screw into a press, and a shell holder. The RCBS shell holder works, the Lee works better, I can size a case that is .012" shorter than a minimum length (minimum length-a foreign term to a reloader), I can size (shorten) a case an additional .002" with the Lee die because it has more slack than the RCBS shell holder.

I size cases to the chamber, to accomplish that I must know the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face. Long before I had a barrel with a 35 whelen chamber, long before I had a 338/06 barrel with a 338/06 chamber I had dies for both, WHY? Without SAAMI, with out a reloading manual I can determined the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face by first necking the case up to 35 Whelen or 338 then start sizing the case neck down until the chase chambered. It was easier to start with 280 Remington cases, all that was required to do was adjust the full length sizer die off the shell holder with out making some wild guesstimate of a fractional turn if the die.

Back to the feeler gage, it is a standard, it is a transfer, and! it is a verifying tool, as when adjusting the die off the shell holder by what ever means like wild guesstimates, after making the guesstimate adjustment verify the gap with a standard, like the feeler gage.

Sizing: for the non mechanically inclined reloader it is impossible to express in 10 words or less the ideal the ram travels the fastest when going up and or down and slows down when it reaches the top and or bottom. Leverage: When sizing the press has the greatest amount of force when the ram reaches the top of its travel. Most difficult concept to understand is when the ram reaches the top of the stroke, needless effort is wasted when attempting to size the bottom of the case, I avoid the wasted effort by knowing the length of the chamber, again, I size to the chamber.

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Old February 15, 2013, 09:09 PM   #7
davery25
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Win243 the 7.5 Swiss case is very tapered and the difference is that the web is either sized or not sized. Loads vary from Min to mid range so not hot at all.

Hummer I've used a comparator gauge to measure to that effect. The question is of whether it's possible to size more of the case without setting the shoulder back any further
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Old February 15, 2013, 09:40 PM   #8
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davery25, virtually all bottleneck cases can be full length sized and end up with their shoulder in the same place relative to the case head as when it was fired. You'll need some sort of gauge to measure the distance between the case head and some point on the shoulder; an RCBS Precision Mic for example.

Normally, when a bottleneck case is full length sized, its shoulder moves forward a bit as the case body diameter starts getting smaller then the shoulder's set back some amount. With the die bottom touching the shell holder when a fired case is all the way up into the die, its shoulder's set back a few thousandths and will remain there until it's fired.

Measure a fired case from its head to that point. Then full length size a case. Measure that sized case the same way. If the measurements longer, the die needs to be turned into the press a little bit. 1/16 turn moves the die about 4 thousandths of an inch.

Repeat this full length size, measure the case and adjust the die until sized cases have the same head to shoulder dimension as sized ones.

This way, your sized cases will fit the chamber the same as fired ones.

Hummer70's suggestion is a good one and may be just right. If the sized cases won't chamber easily, use a .004" feeler gauge to set the die. If the sized case still goes in real easy, set the die with a .006" feeler gauge.
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Old February 16, 2013, 08:58 AM   #9
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What is interesting is this is the first time I ever heard of a factory die setting a shoulder that far back.

I have about 60 sets of dies and normally what happens is the case is run in till die touches shell holder and when pulled out it is obvious die is chambered too deep and the shoulder is not touched and the die stops sizing the neck before it gets to the base.

The guy that trained me said he noticed this back in the 50s and he would occasionally have to take his dies in to Springfield Armory where he was allowed to use the machine shop equipment after normal working hours.

He said he normally took off .005" for a first look and that "cleaned up" most of them by allowing the case to travel another .005" up into die so case shoulder would contact die shoulder and be set back.

I estimate I have had to trim about 15 of my dies in this way to get them to size and one had to be shortened .025" to get it to size properly. When I sized with it the base would get squeezed in and the shoulder went forward and made for hard bolt closing. When I removed the base material in several stages the shoulder was not moving until I got up to .025 and then it showed contact with shoulder and I haven't had problems with it since.

I use Mo Gages which allows me to set dies so shoulder is bumped back about .001". I have had friends send me their dies that showed this problem and I trimmed theirs and no more problems.

I have a 7.5 Swiss chamber reamer and I may just have to make a 7.5 adapter for the MO Gage some day. Right now my dies size just fine for the K31 I have.

Another thought just hit me. I remember hearing about the 1911 Swiss rifles which were rear lockers and such are known for bolt flex which allows the shoulder to go forward more. I guess there is a chance his dies are set up to correct such?????
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Old February 16, 2013, 10:59 AM   #10
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I think I would just neck size.
Thats what I do 90% of the time anyway. I know its out of fashion, but one of my friends holds a bench rest world record and when he quits neck sizing, I will quit as well.
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Old February 16, 2013, 11:14 AM   #11
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I think it is Redding that makes "body dies" that work the body and not the neck.

Works great on 308. Not sure if they have one for the Swiss cases.
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Old February 16, 2013, 02:53 PM   #12
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Hummer70 comments that it is interesting is this is the first time he ever heard of a factory die setting a shoulder that far back. I"ve got 6 or 7 RCBS standard full length sizing dies for the .308 Win. All purchased between 1966 and the early 80's. When set in my Rockchucker's such that the shell holder stop hard against their bottom caming over on fired cases from the same rifle, they all set the shoulder back at least .003" from its fired position. I did this test in the mid '80's on a batch of ammo fired in a .308 Win. SAAMI spec chamber that just swallowed my 1.630" GO headspace gauge and was hard to, but did close hard on a 1.631" GO+1 headspace gauge. That's about a 1.6305" chamber, I guess. So I've had to back the die up a few thousandths to set fired case shoulder back about .001".

I think the reason Redding came out with their competition shell holders in .002" steps above the .125" standard is so folks could use one with their full length sizing dies (that set case shoulders back too far with a standard shellholder contact) and end up with a smaller spread in sized case headspace; that's sometimes hard to do with a gap between the die and shellholder when the ram's at the top of its stroke.

= = = = = = = = =

Reynolds says he'll quit neck only sizing when his benchrest record-holding friend quits. Many benchresters (probably most of them from what I've learned this last year) already have switched over to full length sizing their fired cases. I think they're the last competition discipline shooting super accurate rifles and ammo to do so.
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Old February 16, 2013, 07:22 PM   #13
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Bart, most of them have kind of quit. Some of them truly full length size. Most of the ones I know who are not neck sizing are using custom dies made to their chamber and though technically full length sizing, they are not sizing very much. They are sizing so little that you can put just a little wax on the neck and size the brass without sticking it. Its sizing the full length, but not sizing as small as a typical full length die would do.
You are correct in saying that bench rest shooting is definitely moving toward some form of full length sizing. I have a custom set of dies that came with my .30Br. that has a neck die, body die, seating die. If you use the body die after using the neck die, it has almost no resistance.

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Old February 17, 2013, 08:50 AM   #14
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Reynolds, from what I've gleaned from the BR worls, they'll use full length sizing dies made to reduce body diameter and set shoulders back aboiut .001" and size the neck to just hold the bullet to their desires. And those FL dies are often matched to fired case dimensions minus a tiny bit. That's minimal full length sizing and certainly prevents the accuracy robbing binding of neck only sized cases when they get big enough to touch the chamber body walls when chambered.

In the shoulder fired disciplines, they've got the same level of accuracy as the BR crowd uses for ranges 300 yards and beyond with standard retail Redding or RCBS full length bushing dies sizing fired case bodies down 2 to 3 thousandths and setting shoulders back only 2 of them but sizing necks just enough to hold bullets.

Both types of sizing tools and techniques place loaded bullets equally aligned with the bore when fired. There's more clearance around cases sized down more but no difference in accuracy they produce.
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Old February 17, 2013, 12:37 PM   #15
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"Davery25, I am the only reloader that understands the question."

All hail F. Guffey. Pretty bold statement there pal. I guess the rest of us should just shut up and listen.
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Old February 17, 2013, 12:38 PM   #16
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The answers are getting better, BUT! it goes back to the case and its ability resist sizing, there is no neat and tiny bundle of words that explain “EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT RELOADING AND SIZING A CASE” (Johnny Carson and ED McMahon).

A reloader can determine if the case won or the press won before lowering the ram, If the case has more resistance to sizing then the case can overcome the press won. If the case wins the die does not make it to the shell holder, the part of the case that prevented the die from making contact with the shell holder can be measured with a feeler gage, in thousandths.

Bench rested rifles are built be be bench rested, bench rested rifles are different from most of my rifles, I have a few very accurate rifles, it is not easy to improve on their accuracy, again, accuracy depends more on an accurate rifle than accurate ammo. I have one rifle I do not load for, the accuracy can not be improved upon, DIFFERENCE!? the chamber in the store bought/over the counter rifle has a chamber that was built for factory ammo without the tolerance. The case when chambered hits at the belt and the shoulder at the same time. Cases fired in the rifle chamber in a chamber gage with very slight thumb pressure.

Again, I have neck sizing dies, I have small base dies, I have forming dies for the 300 Win Mag. I have another 300 Win mag, it shoots patterns A very disciplined reloader offered to load for the rifle in an attempt to determine ‘what it liked’, he gave up, I sent the rifle back, same ammo, one rifle shot one hole groups, the other shot patterns.

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Old February 17, 2013, 06:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
the chamber in the store bought/over the counter rifle has a chamber that was built for factory ammo without the tolerance. The case when chambered hits at the belt and the shoulder at the same time.
That's amazing. I never knew factory rifles chambered for belted cases made their ammo so well matched to all those chambers that when chambered, both the belt and shoulder contacted those places in the chamber at the same time.

Kudos and other accolades to the companies for keeping their chamber and ammo tolerances in those areas to well under .001".

Now I'm wondering if all company's ammo would fit all other company's chambers the same way. If so, more amazing.
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Old February 18, 2013, 12:01 PM   #18
F. Guffey
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Quote:




#15
flashhole
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Join Date: February 9, 2005
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Posts: 1,079 "Davery25, I am the only reloader that understands the question."

All hail F. Guffey. Pretty bold statement there pal. I guess the rest of us should just shut up and listen.
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Flashhole, thank you, guess? I said it can not be done, if you choose to get control of sizing a case acquire a good understanding of chamber length from the datum/shoulder back to the bolt face, this technique will put you ahead of ‘fire formers’ by knowing the length of the chamber first you can form first, then fire, all of this with a small investment of about $11.00 +/- $5.00, yes I am still recommending a reloader purchase the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. Name dropping can be continued because there is STARETT, ole LUFKINS, BROWN & SHARP etc., I avoid the name dropping because I believe the person I am talking to can see through the effort.

“Shut up and listen”?, Listen? I expect you to continue to ignore information available to you.

Again, it has never been necessary to grind the bottom of the die or top of the shell holder, and Redding Competition shell holders at $40.00 a set is an expensive alternative to ignoring information available.

Again, a reloader is sizing cases with total disregard for the presses ability to overcome the the cases ability to be sized. I adjust my die to avoid sizing, I limit the amount of sizing that can be accomplished. I am the only reloader than that can adjust my die to the shell holder in my press and get 5 different case length when measured from the shoulder to the case to the head of the case, meaning adjusting my die to or off the shell holder does not guarantee perfect and predictable case length if I ignore a case’s ability to resist sizing. BUT! Even then, with the feeler gage (the humblest/most modest of tools without a pedigree) I can determine if the press won and sized the case, or, of the case won and was not sized, everything hanging out between the die and shell holder did not get sized/stuffed into the die.

No secret, I am waiting for someone to discover ‘it’, the difficulty in sizing comes when the case is full length sized the final few thousandths. I am the only fan of ‘not abusing the press, I do not force the press/die/shell holder to full length size if full length sizing is not necessary. I know, bench resters, they do it, I am happy for them, bench resters are not shooting my rifles, I have a few rifles that shoot, if they did reload for those few rifles they would take all the credit for the accuracy.

reminds me, I am bogged down, with building a gage for a 50 BMG, There is no shortage of 50BMG cases around here and available to me, problem, the case heads, if I do not like the reading I can rotate the case in the gage, sizing? .018” is the no load number for sizing, I adjust the die to the shell holder (.000”), then size the case, the die after bringing the case up to the top of its travel has a .018” gap between the die and shell holder. The press is an A2 RCBS. Down side, getting the die to give the case back and then there is the problem with the neck sizer plug. Anything Dillon lube and Imperial wax is not the answer. My friend insist both are among the best and for that reason we are going to use Dillon and or Imperial., back to my lube, no pedigree. I have started over. now I am working on a ‘one fits all’ 50 BMG chamber length gage.

F. Guffey

Back to ‘never necessary to grind the bottom of the die and or top of the shell holder’ I have shell holders that are shell holders but can not be used for controlling the length of the case from the head for short chambers, I can use them to increase the length of the case from the head to its shoulder, not a problem, they (the old shell holders) have an advantage not available from other shell holders.
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Old February 18, 2013, 12:33 PM   #19
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Bart B. Looking in from the outside.

Bart B.

Yesterday, 07:21 PM #17
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the chamber in the store bought/over the counter rifle has a chamber that was built for factory ammo without the tolerance. The case when chambered hits at the belt and the shoulder at the same time.

That's amazing. I never knew factory rifles chambered for belted cases made their ammo so well matched to all those chambers that when chambered, both the belt and shoulder contacted those places in the chamber at the same time.

Kudos and other accolades to the companies for keeping their chamber and ammo tolerances in those areas to well under .001".

Now I'm wondering if all company's ammo would fit all other company's chambers the same way. If so, more amazing.
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I hope you do not act that immature when you are at a range. We are all shooters, reloaders and gun owners, when someone looks in from the outside you have an obligation to represent this forum and the NRA in an adult and mature manner.

“I do not provoke” I am a gun owner, I am a reloader.

F. Guffey

Back to the belted magnum, do a search, the 300 Win Mag head spaces on the belt, in the beginning what happened to the case in front of the belt was of little consequence, the purpose of the case body was to expand and seal the chamber. Time is a factor, the case body expands to fill the chamber, the shoulder shoulder when fired forms to the shoulder of the the chamber. If the case body does not have to expand to fill the chamber and the shoulder of the chamber is not beyond the shoulder of the case time is reduced between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. And all that case travel is reduced and then the misunderstood part, the shoulder of the case when fired does not move and the case does not stretch stretch between the case head and case body, all that happens when the reloader continues to use bad habits.

Again, I apply the leaver policy, once the case shoulder forms out to the shoulder of the chamber I leaver where I founder.
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Old February 19, 2013, 07:49 AM   #20
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FWIW a friend in my volunteer fire department approached me at a meeting and said he had a problem.

He has a Howa 300 Win mag which he says fires factory ammo just fine. He then went to FL resize it and the rounds would not go back in chamber. He figured dies were bad so he got another set and same thing happened. He bought a third set and same thing happened.

I told him to bring rifle and ammo and brass down and we fired a round and ran them through my dies I have used for 30 years and same thing. Round would not allow bolt to close.

That only means one thing, a bad chamber job with not enough clearance on the shoulder. My match 300 Win Mag reamer has a tighter neck and min base dimension above the belt so I pulled his barrel, cut off threads and rethreaded it and put him a nice chamber in it and lo and behold all his sized cases went in just fine and he was up and running and a happy camper.

The bad news is that he has three sets of 300 Win Mag dies.
On the other hand I had a friend when I was at Picatinny and he said his M1A had problems. His bolt would unlock and everything comes to a stop. I told him to bring the rifle and loaded ammo in to work and I took it home for a looksee. Lo and behold it did exactly what he said. I ran his fired cases in my 308 dies and loaded his load/bullet combo and it worked just fine. Visually there was nothing about his sized cases that drew attention.

I told him to send the dies back to RCBS and tell them what happened. They sent him a new set of dies and they worked just fine.
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Old February 19, 2013, 08:51 AM   #21
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Sounds like your cartridge brass is work hardened enough that it won't accept resizing is my best guess. Set your resizer die up with a comparator gauge, Then anneal your brass. Trim them to minimum OAL length after their annealing. And run them back thru your resizer die again. See if doing that makes a difference in their chambering. If there base area still hangs up upon the bolts camming action to where its difficult to chamber a complete round. Then you have the possibility of other barrel issues needing to be addressed.
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