The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 12, 2013, 08:54 AM   #1
southjk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2012
Location: Memphis
Posts: 423
TN passes PRO gun bill

Surprisingly the state of TN yesterday passed a bill allowing handgun carry permit holders to store firearms in vehicles parked almost everywhere despite property owners or employer's wishes. This includes school and college campuses.

The bill passed on a 28-5 vote.

I love this quote from the bills sponsor.
Quote:
Ramsey said he feels "very strongly that gun-carry permit holders with their impeccable track record need to have their guns in their car wherever they go. It's proven that's a detriment to crime."
This was actually one of the reasons I haven't been in a hurry to get my permit because every day I had to go to my daughters school twice and to my office. Now I won't have to worry about having it locked up in my car if I have it with me.

Keep it up TN!
southjk is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 08:57 AM   #2
Fender57
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2013
Posts: 6
An armed society is a polite and safer society.
Fender57 is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 09:28 AM   #3
JimDandy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,402
It doesn't help with your office, and I'd have to check if it was WA law I read, or Fed Law, but I remember something about parents/guardians picking up and dropping off children from school with a carry permit being exempt from the Gun Free Zone. Didn't sound like you could walk into a PTA meeting, or the principle's office with it, but you could idle on the loop waiting... again that also may be WA law, which wouldn't help in TN.
JimDandy is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 09:34 AM   #4
overhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 182
How does the state enforce such a law? Have they removed my right to eject people from my property for whatever reason I see fit? I get allowing guns in vehicles on public property, schools, city buildings etc. But, telling a private property owner what they must allow on their property rubs me the wrong way. I have no issue with people keeping guns in their cars, but the principle is what bugs me. Don't tell me I can't boot someone off my land for any reason I see fit.
overhead is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 09:38 AM   #5
AH.74
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Hermit's Peak
Posts: 623
NM has in their laws specific allowances for anyone over the age of 19 and a legal owner to have their guns in their cars on school grounds. You do not need a CCW license. There are no other state-prohibited locations as far as areas accessed by vehicle that you need be concerned about.

Good for TN on addressing the issue.
AH.74 is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 09:47 AM   #6
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by overhead
How does the state enforce such a law? Have they removed my right to eject people from my property for whatever reason I see fit? I get allowing guns in vehicles on public property, schools, city buildings etc. But, telling a private property owner what they must allow on their property rubs me the wrong way. I have no issue with people keeping guns in their cars, but the principle is what bugs me. Don't tell me I can't boot someone off my land for any reason I see fit.
Tennessee Senate Bill 142 does not prevent a private property owner from telling someone to leave his land.

The bill would amend Tennessee criminal law so that it would not be a crime for an individual to have a firearm in his vehicle, hidden from observation, where he is otherwise entitled to be. Significantly, the bill would also shield property owners from civil liability arising from the presence of those arms.
zukiphile is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 10:04 AM   #7
overhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 182
I did not realize it was a crime in Tennessee to possess a gun on private property if the owner did not allow it. As long as they are not forcing property owners to allow weapons I don't have an issue with it.
overhead is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 10:21 AM   #8
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,627
Title 39, which this bill would revise, is part of Tennessee's criminal code.
zukiphile is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 01:32 PM   #9
Dr Big Bird PhD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 778
100% agree with the bill, if and only if, private businesses, schools, and individuals can still legally ask the firearms owner to leave.

Which it sounds like the case, so whoopee.
__________________
I told the new me,
"Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'"
But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back."
Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor
Dr Big Bird PhD is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 01:37 PM   #10
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,627
The bill proposes a sort of epistemological question. If the weapon involved is not subject to normal observation, on what basis would a property owner ask an individual to leave?
zukiphile is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 02:50 PM   #11
Dr Big Bird PhD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 778
Zukiphile great question.

There really isn't any. However the right to do so, even if theoretically improbably, needs to be sustained.
__________________
I told the new me,
"Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'"
But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back."
Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor
Dr Big Bird PhD is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 04:43 PM   #12
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,988
Quote:
There's more to life than guns".
~ TN state senator Hall


Huh... Why has no one told me this??!!?


Joking aside I'm glad to know I live in a free state, for now.
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 06:44 PM   #13
Yankee Traveler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 17, 2008
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 232
Passed the House today, in six minutes!

Way to go TN!
Yankee Traveler is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 06:46 PM   #14
Yankee Traveler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 17, 2008
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 232
Excuse me, passed house subcommittee in 6 minutes.

Now it goes on for a full house vote.
Yankee Traveler is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 07:30 PM   #15
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,930
Good on ya TENN.
shortwave is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 10:15 AM   #16
patrickmn
Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by southjk
This was actually one of the reasons I haven't been in a hurry to get my permit because every day I had to go to my daughters school twice and to my office. Now I won't have to worry about having it locked up in my car if I have it with me.
As I understand it, it is already legal for non-student adults with a HCP to have a handgun locked in their car on school property. Also, unless your office parking lot is posted against firearms, you can legally have your gun locked in your car there.

This bill only makes it legal for an employee to have a gun locked in a car in a parking lot that is posted against firearms and takes civil liability from an employer if an employee misuses a gun on their property.

I don't think this bill will affect the lives of very many Tennesseans with HCPs. An employer can still ask to search your private vehicle and fire you if you refuse, or for no reason at all.
__________________
Patrick
patrickmn is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 11:21 PM   #17
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
James Yeager?

Did Yeager testify at the committee meeting of the elected officials?



What?... Too soon?... Lol.

Good job 2A supporters & gun owners in the Volunteer state.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 08:56 AM   #18
cannonfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2010
Location: Georgia
Posts: 497
Quote:
How does the state enforce such a law? Have they removed my right to eject people from my property for whatever reason I see fit? I get allowing guns in vehicles on public property, schools, city buildings etc. But, telling a private property owner what they must allow on their property rubs me the wrong way. I have no issue with people keeping guns in their cars, but the principle is what bugs me. Don't tell me I can't boot someone off my land for any reason I see fit.
In Georgia, it wasn't that private property owners were not allowed to control their property but rather the GA legislature or court said that one's vehicle is an extension of their private property. So I can have guns, alcohol (not opened of course) or whatever in my car and the parking lot's owner has no say what is in my car. But once I take it out of my car, it is no longer on my private property but the parking lot's property
__________________
Segui il tuo corso e lascia dir le genti - Dante

Blaming guns for crime is like blaming the planes for 9/11
cannonfire is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 09:03 AM   #19
overhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 182
"In Georgia, it wasn't that private property owners were not allowed to control their property but rather the GA legislature or court said that one's vehicle is an extension of their private property. So I can have guns, alcohol (not opened of course) or whatever in my car and the parking lot's owner has no say what is in my car. But once I take it out of my car, it is no longer on my private property but the parking lot's property"

I understand. My point was, as a property owner, I can tell you to remove your vehicle or your person from my property for any reason I see fit. If I don't like a gun I know you have or see you have in your vehicle I can tell you to leave, I do not have to tell you why I am asking you to leave. My concern was maintaining property rights, I do not really like it the government starts telling what I may or may not allow on my property. We have enough of that already.

My concern is the more we allow the government to tell us what we must allow on our private property we also sort of open the legal door for them telling us more stuff we "may not" have on our property.
overhead is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 08:15 PM   #20
hermannr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 730
Overheard says:

Quote:
How does the state enforce such a law? Have they removed my right to eject people from my property for whatever reason I see fit? I get allowing guns in vehicles on public property, schools, city buildings etc. But, telling a private property owner what they must allow on their property rubs me the wrong way. I have no issue with people keeping guns in their cars, but the principle is what bugs me. Don't tell me I can't boot someone off my land for any reason I see fit.
You need to consider...there is private property that others can only visit with your permission (your private home) and Private property that is open to the public for several reasons...like a store, a motel, a business.

If that store, motel, or business cannot restrict who enters or works on that property (try the Americans with Disabilities Act as well as other "non-discrimination" acts...why could those places restrict a fundimental right, especially when it concerns the visitor's own private property (his vehicle)?

Now, for your home, that is a different matter, you do not have to allow the visitor's vehicle on your property.

If you have a business that is open to the public, you have no private property rights...just try discriminate against a protected group and you will soon find out.
hermannr is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 08:27 PM   #21
overhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 182
Must I also allow my employees to exercise their other natural rights? Must I allow their freedom of speech/expression? If they have a klan sticker on their vehicle must I allow them to park it on my property? I would say no, I don't.

I may not fire an employee that is a member of a protected class for being a member of that protected class. I also may not eject them from my store, for example, for being a member of a protected class.

Now I don't own a business anymore, so it doesn't really impact me. Also, in VA, our attorney general just put out an opinion that a property owner may say employees cannot keep guns in their vehicle on the property if they wish. I agree with that decision. As I said, I have no problem with people keeping gun in their vehicles on my property. And, it should not be an issue unless the person that has the gun in their vehicle makes in an issue.
overhead is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 11:32 PM   #22
tyme
Staff
 
Join Date: October 13, 2001
Posts: 3,155
You don't have to let your employees have guns in their cars, parked on your commercial property. You can modify their employment agreement so they have to park elsewhere, or you can fire them if they're somehow dangerous or careless with their firearms.

Prohibiting people from having guns in their cars in a work parking lot is bad. It infringes upon the employees' rights as they travel to and from work.

On residential private property, you can do anything you want.

On commercial private property, the rights of employees and customers who are behaving lawfully must be balanced against the rights of the owner.
__________________
“The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner)
“Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum)
“It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)
tyme is offline  
Old February 17, 2013, 08:49 AM   #23
overhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 182
The federal government is allowed to tell me I cannot carry a weapon onto a military base, and that seems to have past the constitutional muster. But, as a private property owner I cannot do the same thing?

I think the solution, for me, if I felt strongly about the issue, would be to tell all employees they cannot park on the property.

I am concerned about property rights, but , also, I don't understand why people feel the need to make this an issue. If you want to carry a gun in your car carry a gun. Don't advertise that fact. As long as it is not against state law it should never be an issue.
overhead is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 08:44 AM   #24
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,627
A bit of clarification may prevent undue development of some concerns expressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overhead
The federal government is allowed to tell me I cannot carry a weapon onto a military base, and that seems to have past the constitutional muster. But, as a private property owner I cannot do the same thing?
As noted by Tyme, this proposed law does not pertain to your private residential property. To the degree you invite the public generally onto your commercial property, you would not be permitted to prohibit people from having arms in their cars where you are unable to detect those arms through normal observation.

As a practical consequence of such a law, a business owner would not be able to give criminal law status to his wish to prohibit those he invites onto his property from possessing arms concealed in their cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overhead
Must I allow their freedom of speech/expression? If they have a klan sticker on their vehicle must I allow them to park it on my property? I would say no, I don't.
A clan sticker on the outside of a vehicle is subject to ordinary observation.

The protection described in this bill is very narrow.

Last edited by zukiphile; February 18, 2013 at 11:19 AM.
zukiphile is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 11:08 AM   #25
Yankee Traveler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 17, 2008
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 232
Code:
If you want to carry a gun in your car carry a gun. Don't advertise that fact.
Agreed.

But lets just say you own a business that has experienced some thefts and wish to search all vehicles at the end of a shift in an attempt to find the culprit(s). During these searches you find an employee with a carry permit has kept their personel protection properly secured in their vehicle during that shift. If that employee has not done anything offensive or unlawful, they should be protected from termination just because their carry beliefs are different than your carry beliefs. It is no different than terminating an employee because you witnessed them entering a place of worship that differs from your place of worship.
Yankee Traveler is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13972 seconds with 9 queries