The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 13, 2013, 04:09 PM   #1
jessedehaven04
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2013
Posts: 9
375 ruger? 116 savage?

i had a question about the 375 ruger, after long debate i have decided to go with the 375 ruger over the 375 h&h mainly because the cost of the rifles and brass is a little more affordable, that and the lack of remington 798 out there now, ive been looking at the savage 116 alaskan brush hunter with the 20" barrel but my main concern is how accurate it will be with a short barrel, ive never owned a hunting rifle with such a short barrel, my question is the 116 accurate around the 300 yard range? im not looking for a target gun just to be able to get a kill shot on a moose at that distance if it is called for, any advice or tips would be appreciated,
jessedehaven04 is offline  
Old February 13, 2013, 05:47 PM   #2
kahrguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2012
Posts: 561
Accuracy will not or should not be effected by a 20" barrel if any optics are used. Little shorter sight radius with open sights depend on your eyes and it is made for quicker close in work. You would be giveing up a little in velocity. You can buy the Afican model and get the 23" barrel if lenght is an issue and you feel longer shoots are the norm.

Ruger designed this with hornady so why not call ruger and talk to them about velocity difference between the 20" and 23" barrels . Probably no more than 100fps.
I don't think a bear at 50 yards or less would know the difference when a 300gr bullet hit it.
kahrguy is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 05:46 PM   #3
dgludwig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 5,182
kahrguy is exactly right. A slightly shorter barrel will have no effect on the intrinsic accuracy of a rifle and negligible effect on fps. Get the rifle that handles the best in your hands and that fits your financial situation best and don't look back.
__________________
ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED
...Aristotle
NRA Benefactor Life Member
dgludwig is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 08:29 PM   #4
handlerer2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2010
Location: Yellowstone Co, MT
Posts: 303
All other factors being equal, a shorter barrel will be more accurate than a longer barrel. Ever notice that benchrest rifles almost all have 20" barrels.

A bicycle wheel is turning the same number of RPM at the axel, as at the wheel, but the distance traveled by the wheel is exponentially greater than the travel at the axel. The same principle applies to rifles also.

The result of ammunition discharges on barrels, are reaction to torque caused by rifling spinning lead projectiles. Twist causes twist, the longer the barrel, the more flex is possible.

Barrel length is a factor only in very long range target applications, IMO. Also in magnum riflery, where you need length to completely burn overbore loads.

Now days, with new mystical powders, Hornaday and Ruger, can claim to exceed factory 375H&H, with that 20" barrel. Good Ole American Voodoo!
handlerer2 is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 11:26 PM   #5
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,361
Jessee, I am a huge Savage fan, but I honestly think Howa has Savage beat on the .375 Ruger. I just bought one and love it. I like the .375 Ruger better than the H&H just because of the length of the Cartridge. I have a Mark V H&H and I like the Howa better than I like it due strictly to the action length. You can get the Howa as either a carbine or full length. What has been said about short length barrels and accuracy is not necessarily correct. A 6 PPC can burn its powder efficiently in a 20" barrel. A .375 Ruger is not going to efficiently burn its powder in a 20" barrel. A 20" barrel in a PPC is not an accurate comparison to a 20" barrel in a .375 Ruger.
reynolds357 is online now  
Old February 16, 2013, 10:29 AM   #6
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,509
Here is the thing about the .375 Ruger when it was developed by Hornady and Ruger it was made to produce .375 H&H performance in a 20" barrel. So it will push a 270 grain bullet to 2800 fps out of a 20" barrel. So to say a .375 Ruger won't efficiently burn all the powder in a 20" barrel is a fallacy, but you have to choose the right powders if you reload the .375 Ruger.

When I built my .375 Ruger I went with a 24" barrel just because I was wanting a more traditional length barrel on my M70 Winchester, and the 4" longer barrel helps with noise. I can't imagine the noise from the Savage with it's 20" braked barrel. I had an Encore pistol with a 17" braked barrel and that thing caused a terrible flinch just from the blast I was receiving from the brake.

There are several options if you want to go with the H&H. I'd look for an old Interarms Mark X or Whitworth in .375 H&H these can usually be had for around $750 and get you a Mauser action. Winchester makes a nice SS laminate in the M70 Alaskan but will run you more than $1200 NIB. Then you can pick up a Browning, Sako, and the occasional Remington M700 as well.

The nice thing about the .375 Ruger is that you can rebarrel any standard length magnum action to use this cartridge. I took a 7mm RM M70 XTR and rebarreled it to the Ruger when the cartridge first came out just to try. I think it is a good cartridge but in the end I think I'd rather have the H&H just because I like the classic appeal of the cartridge and the history behind it. Plus there are far more options for brass out there than just the Hornady brass for the Ruger. Most times I can find new H&H brass cheaper than the Hornady brass.
__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 10:51 AM   #7
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,361
A .375 Ruger does not efficiently burn its powder in a 20" barrel. The velocity gap between a 20" barrel and a 24" barrel with Hornaday ammo designed for the 20" barrel is testament to that fact. Duplicating the velocity of the H&H which dates back to the days of Cordite and the pressures of a double rifle is no acomplishment for the Ruger. Soundly thumping the velocity of the H&H with the 24" barrel is a testament to the Ruger. Having said that, if you load the H&H up to the pressure potential of the Mark V action, it makes the Ruger look a bit pitiful. At that pressure, the H&H also kicks like a mule on steroids. If you use a fast enough powder, you can theoretically get the powder burned in a 10" barrel. However, that does not mean that the load is an efficient match between bore dia. and volumetric capacity of the case.
reynolds357 is online now  
Old February 16, 2013, 12:09 PM   #8
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,509
Quote:
A .375 Ruger does not efficiently burn its powder in a 20" barrel.
What exactly is the basis of your argument? Just because the 24" barrel produces more velocity doesn't mean that the powder isn't being burned efficiently in a shorter barrel. There are several cartridges that were designed for short barrels that still produce faster velocities than the shorter barrel that doesn't change the fact that they are efficient in a shorter barrel. The shorter and fatter powder column which is proven to provide more efficient ignition and burn regardless of barrel length, the same can't be said for the H&H.

Quote:
Soundly thumping the velocity of the H&H with the 24" barrel is a testament to the Ruger.
Like I said you have to pick your powders. The H&H will push a 260 grain Nosler Partition to 2754 fps with a 79 grain charger of IMR 4007 SSC, and the Ruger pushes the 260 grain Accubond to 2793 fps with a 78 grain charge of IMR 4007 SSC. H&H will push a 270 grain TSX to 2632 fps with 78 grains of H380 and the Ruger will do 2783 fps with a 270 grain Hornady and 83.5 grains of H4350. So I wouldn't call it a lot more efficient overall, these loads were taken from Hogdon's web page and both were fired from a 24" barrel. So I wouldn't go saying the Ruger soundly thumps the H&H out of a 24" barrel. In fact to soundly thump the H&H the Ruger is using on average 10% more of the same exact powder in most cases to do it. However, I wonder if someone was to do a comparison of 20" barrels would the results be as close?

The real problem with the H&H matching the velocities of the Ruger is the case design. The case capacities are similar 95 grains of water for the H&H and 99 grains of water for the Ruger. However the long taper of the case and shoulder angle leave the H&H prone to stretching and separation ahead of the belt on the case if pushed too hard. The minimal body taper and sharper shoulder allow the Ruger to be pushed harder without the case stretch of the H&H. Both the Ruger and the H&H have an average SAAMI maximum operating pressure of 62,000 PSI the old cordite powder argument really isn't a good one anymore.
__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is offline  
Old June 15, 2013, 03:01 AM   #9
pricedo
Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2008
Location: NRA LIFE MEMBER
Posts: 35
I actually own & have shot and successfully hunted with a Savage Alaskan Brush Hunter in .375 Ruger.
It's the only one of my .375 mags that I would carry all day in the bush.
I'm not lugging a 11 pound rifle/scope combo over 10 miles of rough terrain elk or moose hunting to save a few fps.......sorry it just isn't happening.
I'll leave that for you young tough guys.
Yup! .......you loose a few fps & a few ft-lbs but life is all about compromises.
The elk I shot with my Brush Hunter last fall didn't know it was shot with a short barreled (18.5") .375 magnum.
The wrapped elk meat in my freezer still looks pretty dead to me after a few months.
pricedo is offline  
Old June 15, 2013, 05:04 AM   #10
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 775
I haven't worked with your caliber, but I can give you a thumbs up on the Savage 116. Mine is a "Weather Warrior" with a 24" barrel in a "milder" caliber - .338 Win Mag. It's ugly as sin, but well made and light enough to carry all day. Accurate too. Despite the low weight, recoil is not excessive.
ligonierbill is offline  
Old June 15, 2013, 07:01 AM   #11
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 6,016
Quote:
you use a fast enough powder, you can theoretically get the powder burned in a 10" barrel.
Internet myth. Using a faster powder does not improve velocity when using shorter barrels. The load you develop that produces the best velocity from a 26" or longer barrel will also be the fastest load from a 20" or shorter barrel.

Bullet speed makes a difference in trajectory at longer ranges, very little difference in how much penetration you get at close range. In fact often a slightly slower bullet will perform better. A 375 in either flavor makes more sense in a shorter 20" barrrel.
jmr40 is offline  
Old June 15, 2013, 11:47 AM   #12
Kachok
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2012
Posts: 171
True jmr, but I still use slower powders for longer tubes, not for speed reasons but because muzzle blast gets pretty at times, I tried a heavily compressed load of RL22 in my 22" 30-06 and the blast felt like it would take the hair off your arms. My IMR4350 loads are not as fast but they don't ring your bell like that one does.
The 375 Ruger like most centerfire cartridges will gain speed well past the 20" mark no doubt about it, (even the mild 308 keeps gaining speed until at leased the 30" mark) but that does not mean that it is handicapped by a 20" much either, for a dangerous game rifle being "handy" can be a life of death thing, I'll trade a few fps for that hunting in the brush.

Last edited by Kachok; June 15, 2013 at 11:53 AM.
Kachok is offline  
Old June 16, 2013, 02:45 AM   #13
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,569
Quote:
Internet myth. Using a faster powder does not improve velocity when using shorter barrels. The load you develop that produces the best velocity from a 26" or longer barrel will also be the fastest load from a 20" or shorter barrel.
When you are going from a rifle length barrel to a carbine length barrel you are correct.

However these myths get started because there is a grain of truth somewhere.

When you are going from a rifle length barrel such as 24" to a pistol length barrel, such as 10" or less then you might want to rethink that statement that a slow burning rifle powder will produce faster velocities than a pistol powder. Just because 2400 gave you the best velocity in a long barreled levergun for your 44 doesn't mean it will be the best performer out of your 2" snubbie.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old December 2, 2013, 07:30 PM   #14
pricedo
Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2008
Location: NRA LIFE MEMBER
Posts: 35
What Savage Alaskan Brush Rifle are you talking about with a 20" barrel?
I own one in 375 Ruger and it had a 18" barrel.
pricedo is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 06:38 AM   #15
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,509
Quote:
What Savage Alaskan Brush Rifle are you talking about with a 20" barrel?
I own one in 375 Ruger and it had a 18" barrel.
Savage lists it on the website as having a 20" barrel, how were you measuring?
__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09640 seconds with 9 queries