The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 9, 2013, 07:10 AM   #26
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,697
GTOne, if all firearms manufacturers say never fire reloads, many of them are contradicting themselves by their ammo making divisions selling components so people can make reloads to fire in them. Winchester and Remington, for example.

I've never seen that warning on any firearms company's published info. If it was reality, they surely would make it clear and not hide it from public view.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is online now  
Old February 9, 2013, 11:10 AM   #27
CrustyFN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 2,258
"GTOne, if all firearms manufacturers say never fire reloads, many of them are contradicting themselves by their ammo making divisions selling components so people can make reloads to fire in them. Winchester and Remington, for example.

I've never seen that warning on any firearms company's published info. If it was reality, they surely would make it clear and not hide it from public view."


Look in the manual that came with your firearm. Most of them will say not to shoot reloads. As far as them contradicting themselves I have never seen bullets, powder or primers made by Glock, CZ, S&W, Ruger, Taraus, Mossberg, FN and the list goes on.

To the OP. it will not hurt the ammo to tumble in a vibratory tumbler for a short time. I have also seen the tests where ammo was tumbled for 48 hours with no change in performance. I tumble all of my rifle ammo after it's loaded to remove the lube. Never had any problems.
__________________
I don't ever remember being absent minded.
CrustyFN is offline  
Old February 9, 2013, 11:27 AM   #28
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by highrolls
So for an experiment to be viable, the tumbling would have to allow for the powder to move against itself within the case and that amount of movement would have to be quantifiable and repeatable. In addition, where grain size/shape is a factor in burn rate control, that would imply a separate experiment for each powder type.
Uh huh. And that's the difference between what a peer-reviewed scientific journal might require and what ordinary people will accept as common-sense, every day life. Of course, these scientists are the same people that won't accept that surgical sterilization works on deer unless the animals are tracked to prove that they don't have babies.

Powder that's traveling is being shaken against other powder and containers non-stop. There is zero reason to believe that there would be any difference between that and a vibratory tumbler. I've never seen any indication that the problem is some sort of resonance or fixed frequency. The claim is that the vibrations will "break" the powder or make the flakes smaller.

Repeated test with various powders have consistently shown that there is no effect. Rifle powder, handgun powder, many powders. Time frames up to over 200 hours. That's enough for me and most anybody who accepts a reasonable amount of every day experience to make decisions. If you require scientifically valid, controlled, blind studies, so be it. Don't tumble your ammo.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old February 9, 2013, 12:44 PM   #29
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,697
CrustyFN, do the gun makers say not to shoot reloads or that they're not responsible if one does? There is a difference. Just curious.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is online now  
Old February 9, 2013, 01:02 PM   #30
mikld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 1,056
Reports from powder manufacturers, ammo makers, military, home experimenters have no effect on this debate. It has been going on since I started frequenting forums years ago, and it still comes up every couple months or so. Seems to break down into two schools; No, the tumbling will break down the powder changing the burning rate, and a primer may get hit hard enough to fire while tumbling. And Yes, ammo manufacturers tumble their newly manufactured ammo, and the military ships ammo all over the world in planes, trucks, jeeps, on donkeys, and are subjected to extreme conditions of vibration/jostling and temperature, with no effect on ammo preformance.

No amount of evidence on either side will solve this debate. It seems to have a life of it's own...

BTW; I don't tumble my finished reloads ONLY BECAUSE THEY AREN'T DIRTY!
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast!
mikld is offline  
Old February 9, 2013, 02:45 PM   #31
snuffy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2001
Location: Oshkosh wi.
Posts: 2,767
Quote:
1. If the powder experiences abrasive friction, it will wear down. The only questions with a well defined experiment would be time and abrasion rate. How much time ? How much empty case space ?
No it won't. ANY type of powder is tough stuff. It resembles a plastic, it's hard and dense. It also just happens to have a lubricant applied to it, graphite. The graphite is there to prevent clumping, also to aid in flowing through a measure.

Nobody is going to introduce an abrasive into a powder charge. It would NOT be good for the barrels. Load density is another factor, less than 90% would allow plenty of movement. Now, a friction reducing lubricant, on a tough powder particle with limited movement, is a no-brainer, no change to the structure.

Next claim to be made is the movement of the powder against itself will remove the flame retardant that coats each granule to control burn rate. Oh?¿ Just where is it going to go? It was applied by means of tumbling the powder and flame retardant in a vessel! Trapped inside the cartridge case, it gets reapplied if it in fact is knocked loose.

Quote:
The primer compound is constrained by the primer cup, is constrained by the case, and the constraining material has very different physical properties from the material it constrains.
It's pretty obvious you don't understand how a primer is constructed. The "primer compound" is inserted as a wet paste into the bottom of the brass cup. It has a paper disk on top of it to allow the wet pellet to adhere to the cup, not the punch. It dries as a solid disc, it's not a powder! There will be NO change to the primer from tumbling.

As for the tip of a bullet striking a primer to fire it, there just isn't enough motion to provide the force necessary to do it. Consider the amount of force present on the tip of a firing pin, where in a tumbler is that much force present?
__________________
The more people I meet, the more I love my dog

They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?
snuffy is offline  
Old February 9, 2013, 08:23 PM   #32
CrustyFN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 2,258
Bart I have seen it written in the manual that comes with a new gun. I don't know if they all are written like that but I have seen it in a couple. The one that came with my Glock seems to ring a bell. I'll have to dig it out when I get time and see if I can find it again.
__________________
I don't ever remember being absent minded.
CrustyFN is offline  
Old February 9, 2013, 08:46 PM   #33
Ca Lunker
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2012
Location: Pa
Posts: 14
According to my Smith and Wesson M&P manual is says "Use only commercially manufactured ammunition".

Of course I don't pay attention to that note in the manual.
Ca Lunker is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 12:43 AM   #34
highrolls
Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2009
Location: already given
Posts: 63
Whisper 300-
"The Grand Canyon started off a lot less deep than it is today-look at what 200 million years of erosion will do."

Great example. Lets shorten the time scale by several orders of magnitude and use a harder material than aggregates. Lets use glass. Lets use only one zero and go down to decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_B..._California%29

Brian Pfleuger-
"Powder that's traveling is being shaken against other powder and containers non-stop. There is zero reason to believe that there would be any difference between that and a vibratory tumbler."

I am puzzled by your use of the term "non-stop". While that may imply fixed-frequency to some, the traveling is random frequency. It is also damped linear, one degree of freedom.

Lets try an example: You are tasked to ship another large order of glassware and you inspect the shipment to assure that the shipping folks have packaged it in the same manner (common sense) that they always have. Unknown to you, the transport arrives in the only vehicle available, a large cement mix truck. The order is loaded into the mixer (cargo area) and leaves, with the mixer engaged for the trip. (Fixed frequency, more than one degree of freedom)

The shipping folks represent packaged products, glass or ammo, prepared to reasonably make the journey using common sense. The powder inside the ammo gets shaken in the sense of a drop tube, linear forcing function (up and down kinda thing).

Throwing the glassware shipment into a cement mixer represents the tumbler, but I will credit that the cement truck also duplicates the shipping random frequency stuff on top of the tumbler action. There is a difference and you certainly do not need to take my word for that.

snuffy-
"ANY type of powder is tough stuff. It resembles a plastic, it's hard and dense. It also just happens to have a lubricant applied to it, graphite."

Hard and dense kinda like glass ? Graphite needs water vapor to be a lubricant, which makes it corrosive in some environments. Without the water vapor it is abrasive. Keep your powder dry, snuffy.

snuffy-
"Nobody is going to introduce an abrasive into a powder charge. It would NOT be good for the barrels."

If there is no abrasive action going on in barrels, why is it that they wear ?

snuffy-
"It's pretty obvious you don't understand how a primer is constructed."

I do not know how the motherboard on my computer is constructed either. Neither my comment nor yours is useful to the discussion. But thank you for confirming that a primer is constrained by the cup, not contained by it.

snuffy-
" There will be NO change to the primer from tumbling."

Open ended and definitive statements are easy to challenge. Snuffy, try this. Take the media out of your tumbler. Empty a brick (1000) of fresh primers in the tumbler. Turn it on. The only question now is how much time will it take to prove to yourself your statement should be re-phrased.

Humor Break:

Brian Pfleuger-
"Of course, these scientists are the same people that won't accept that surgical sterilization works on deer unless the animals are tracked to prove that they don't have babies."

Actually just the opposite occurred in Jurassic Park. The scientists created all female dinosaurs to be sure they don't have babies. In the movie the statement of "Nature will find a way" was the classic line to refute the scientists.

Brian Pfleuger-
"Repeated test with various powders have consistently shown that there is no effect."

Repeated tests are not the same thing as repeatable tests. Repeated tests are fun to talk about but they neither show nor prove anything.

I am wrapping up my posting in this thread. Thanks guys, I really enjoyed this but this level of effort is over cause I am too lazy to continue it.

I will leave all of you with an example of a repeatable test. First, pick any forum you want that has debate-able issues cropping up on a regular basis.

Jump in without taking sides, do your best to propose a definitive solution, and just watch. My tests so far lead me to conclude that the debate on these issues is far preferable to solving them. If you really do propose something that might work, your neutrality is ignored. How dare you endanger our favorite BS topics. Try it, it's fun.
highrolls is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 01:08 AM   #35
j357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2009
Location: Liberty Twp, OH
Posts: 220


HAHAHA... Too funny.
j357 is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 04:36 AM   #36
david_r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2013
Posts: 131
This place is funny. There are only two sides to this discussion. Fairy Tale vs. Reality. Pick your side. If you pick the latter, you should remember that people don't really want their dreams crushed and will ignore any evidence (read: repeated tests) while not providing any evidence to support the alternative view point.

Those same people will clean their brass, neck turn it, clean their primer pockets, de-burr flash holes, weigh powder charges, etc. all on the basis of someone else's repeated tests.

In case you aren't clear on which side is which. Jurassic park was a fairy tale. Gun powder is more like ping pong balls than stemware. A concrete truck is several orders of magnitude different than any tumbler reloaders would likely use. 200 hours is not 20 minutes.

OP should repost his question as, Can anyone provide evidence that tumbling loaded rounds to clean them is detrimental to their performance?
david_r is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 05:57 PM   #37
PTaylor
Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2006
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 17
For a nice polish, I've been using plain white rice and a little Nufinish car polish. Cheap and it works well.
PTaylor is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 06:01 PM   #38
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,042
I don't tumble loaded rounds and I really don't know how much time it takes to tumble ammunition and have problems.

When I called the Army Ammunition Safety Group to talk about a bulletin of theirs, I got to talk to a couple of the good guys there. These were logisticians who were ex GI’s. I was informed that if ammunition stored on tracked vehicles has to be “cycled” because of pressure and function problems encountered if the ammunition is kept on the vehicle too long. Tracked vehicles have high amplitude vibrations, if you have never ridden in one, they are uncomfortable and noisy.

I believe the gunpowder in the ammunition in these vehicles is being mechanically broken down.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 09:27 PM   #39
Budweiser
Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 20
Have polished 10's of thousands of reloaded rifle and pistol ammo in my Dillion CV-750 Vibratory Case Cleaner. Usually no more than 30 to 40 minutes, final rolling wipe off between 2 terry cloth towels, check every round with a case gauge and into the box. Have never, ever had an issue as a result, and would think more problems would arise with having residue case lube cycling through a hot semi-auto chamber.

I did have the opportunity to tour Black Hills Shooters Supply many years ago, they were tumbling finished cartridges in large open top 55 gal cardboard drums set at about a 45% angle, with corn cob media.
Budweiser is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 08:24 PM   #40
Toolman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 514
The only loaded rounds I ever felt needed tumbled were some old 7.65 Argentine. I tried it once but they were so heavy it took a long time in my old Frankford Arsenal tumbler. I cleaned them by hand, waxed them & 'life is good'.
__________________
Crime Control. NOT Gun Control.
Toolman is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 09:32 AM   #41
oldmanFCSA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 2010
Location: Osceola, WI
Posts: 140
I have "tumbled" loaded rounds for years, correction hours, but have been doing it for years. I only use clean dry corncob media with no additives.

When TUMBLING as in any type of rolling barrel, fill barrel to top with media so loaded cases SLIDE thru the media and do not tumble in manner that the point of a bullet may contact a primer with sufficient force to set it off.

When VIBRATING, fill barrel with media to minimize cases bumping into each other and to slow the cycling process.

I tumble all loaded rounds, except my 50BMG target rounds due to size, to remove any lubes and fingerprints prior to final cleaning in bath towel and packaging. Handling after cleaning involves using cotton gloves. I have loaded ammo from 1982 that still looks better than any newly purchased ammo, and still shoots better. I seal in plastic bags and place in good ammo cans.

Brass and copper will tarnish slightly due to age and exposed lead will oxidize. Sealing in plastic and again in ammo cans will minimize this aging process.

Your methods and results may vary - your choice.
__________________
OldmanFCSA = "Oldman" at Fifty Caliber Shooters Association www.fcsa.org
2012 & 2013 FCSA Regional Match Director - Alliance, NE - Spring Match June - Fall Match September 2013 - ALL 50BMG Shooters
FCSA Member & SCSA Member & NRA Member & AMA Member

"Oldage & Treachery will overcome Youth & Skill"
oldmanFCSA is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 11:42 AM   #42
snuffy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2001
Location: Oshkosh wi.
Posts: 2,767
There's 2-two Ft Bragg (s)? My kid was at Ft Bragg in north Carolina.???¿¿ Um, anyway, now we have sea water and sand inside our ammo? Highrolls, you're grasping at straws! (An old adage that refers to someone drowning, trying to stay afloat by hanging onto a floating straw). The fact that seawater and sand in surf is polishing glass on that beach is real neat. I'll put that on my bucket list!

Quote:
OP should repost his question as, Can anyone provide evidence that tumbling loaded rounds to clean them is detrimental to their performance?
That right there says it all. Kind of breaks it down to the basics. Repeated tests have confirmed that it has no effect. But scare D Pants out there keep saying it will "grind" the powder to dust. Wait, that's it, they thing because it's called "powder" they think it's like dust, fragile!

Quote:
snuffy-
"Nobody is going to introduce an abrasive into a powder charge. It would NOT be good for the barrels."

If there is no abrasive action going on in barrels, why is it that they wear ?
Barrels don't "wear out" the throat is cut by high temp powder gasses. Let a barrel get too hot, it'll wear out faster. Back in the black powder days, and the then new smokeless powder days, you had to clean your barrels every time after you shot them because the powder, then the primers left a corrosive residue that is hygroscopic. That means it pulls water out of it's vapor state to react with the corrosive salts to eat the barrel steel.

Quote:
snuffy-
" There will be NO change to the primer from tumbling."

Open ended and definitive statements are easy to challenge. Snuffy, try this. Take the media out of your tumbler. Empty a brick (1000) of fresh primers in the tumbler. Turn it on. The only question now is how much time will it take to prove to yourself your statement should be re-phrased.
Get real! Grasping for straws again! A properly seated primer is contained, or as you put is constrained, by the primer pocket. Then the anvil is "set" or pre-loaded against the bottom of the primer pocket and the pellet. How in heck does that relate to 1 thousand loose primers in a tumbler?

Quote:
How dare you endanger our favorite BS topics. Try it, it's fun.
Enough said. We have our positions, we will do what we think is right or safe.
__________________
The more people I meet, the more I love my dog

They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?
snuffy is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 08:02 PM   #43
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,697
Snuffy says nobody is going to introduce an abrasive into a powder charge. It would NOT be good for the barrels.

Yet that's exactly what Eley did in their ammo plant in Great Britian some years ago; mid 1980's as I remember. An explosion at their primer facility killed a man or two seriously injuring others. Their priming compound used in their great Tenex .22 rimfire match ammo got changed adding more glass frit to the mixture as well as some chemical changes.

Before this, Olympic class smallbore folks would get 50,000 rounds of accurate barrel life from their rifles. After the primer compound change, barrel life dropped to about 30,000 rounds. Best accuracy also took a nose dive. Most of the .22 rimfire records fired before then still stand. 'Twas easy before hand to get a lot of Tenex that shot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards in good barrels. After the primer change, folks threw a party if they got a lot that would shoot 3/4 inch at 100 yards.

I think Snuffy should examine some smokeless powder under a 200X microscope; both before and after an hour or two of tumbling or vibrating.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is online now  
Old February 14, 2013, 08:40 PM   #44
CrustyFN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 2,258
Quote:
I think Snuffy should examine some smokeless powder under a 200X microscope; both before and after an hour or two of tumbling or vibrating.
Snuffy probably already has like a lot of us. Sounds like you haven't. Here it is for your enjoyment.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/989...nds_in_OP.html
__________________
I don't ever remember being absent minded.
CrustyFN is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 03:02 AM   #45
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,053
Save yourself the worry and just put it in the dishwasher. That shouldn't hurt the stuff either.

Or just leave the ammo in your your jeans pockets for a trip through the washer.

As to the original topic, I'm firmly in the camp that says no reasonable amount of tumbling in a vibratory or rotary polisher is going to hurt the powder.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 10:45 AM   #46
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,697
CrustyFN, you're making assumptions. Bad one regarding my microscope comment.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is online now  
Old February 15, 2013, 10:57 AM   #47
CrustyFN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 2,258
Quote:
CrustyFN, you're making assumptions. Bad one regarding my microscope comment.
Well then if you have seen proof with a microscope that tumbling for 30 minutes breaks down powder we would love to see it. Until somebody can show some proof it will remain an internet myth ( to me ) because of all the proof that shows it doesn't break down powder plus my personal experience.
__________________
I don't ever remember being absent minded.

Last edited by CrustyFN; February 15, 2013 at 11:26 AM.
CrustyFN is offline  
Old February 15, 2013, 06:01 PM   #48
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,697
Crusty, check with Hodgdon Powder folks. They'll clue you in to the "whiskers" on smokless powder particles.

I've seen what looks like whiskers with a microscope and to date, there's no way to transfer that image from my eye's retina to any out-of-body electronic or physical media.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is online now  
Old February 15, 2013, 06:30 PM   #49
jcwit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2007
Location: Upper Indiana
Posts: 593
This discussion seems similar to the ones about how dangerous the inertia bullet pullers are.

To date I have yet to hear of anyone getting harmed tumbling loaded ammo or shooting tumbled loaded ammo.

Now about the whiskers, get one of those super duper 4 blade razors.

This same topic has been discussed and cussed over on thr, with some members tumbling loaded ammo for weeks IIRC with nothing being visiable different thru a microscope, whiskers or not.

Quote:
There's 2-two Ft Bragg (s)? My kid was at Ft Bragg in north Carolina.???¿¿ Um, anyway, now we have sea water and sand inside our ammo? Highrolls, you're grasping at straws! (An old adage that refers to someone drowning, trying to stay afloat by hanging onto a floating straw). The fact that seawater and sand in surf is polishing glass on that beach is real neat. I'll put that on my bucket list!
Yes snuffy there is a Ft. Bragg in Calif., it is a town/city not a military fort. And yes glass does get polished by surf whether it at the ocean or one of the great lakes or a river for that matter, never saw it at a small lake tho.
__________________
U.S. Army Veteran
NRA Certified Range Officer
jcwit is offline  
Old February 16, 2013, 11:23 AM   #50
schmellba99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2008
Posts: 578
Quote:
What happens when the powder is free to move around more ?
You are making an assumption based on the premise that Grain 1 is different than Grain 2. They will have differing sizes, shapes and weights, but they are of the same makeup - which means they have the same hardness.

Ever see what happens when you rub two materials together that are exactly the same Rockwell Hardness? Nothing.

Umpteen millions of rounds are tumbled after loading to remove lube and give the round a finished look - even from factory ammo. You would have to tumble/vibrate the rounds for such and obscene amount of time to have detrimental impact on the powder that this discussion is kind of stupid really.
schmellba99 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14094 seconds with 9 queries