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Old February 14, 2013, 07:28 AM   #126
MLeake
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Nice non sequitir, Rifleman.

Nobody here is trying to make a hero out of Dorner.

Radio transcripts strongly indicate that LE started the fire, and those transcripts make it appear deliberate.
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Old February 14, 2013, 09:06 AM   #127
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Speaking of burning buildings...

... the following is a link to a current appeals case in Maine:

http://www.kjonline.com/news/bellava...p+arson+appeal

The appellate claims his 30 year prison sentence for arson of an occupied structure is unreasonable, because nobody was actually hurt.

The judge sentenced him to 30 years because, whether he knew people were in the building or not, and whether they were actually harmed or not, he could have murdered multiple people, including some kids, via his actions.

I suspect very few TFL members have a problem with that sentence, for that crime.

But I have to ask, what then is the difference between what the arsonist did, and what the police did, if the police did not ENSURE there were no innocents in that building?
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Old February 14, 2013, 09:30 AM   #128
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This ought to be a bit of an embarrassment to those making such proposals: it certainly undercuts their claim that only "trained professionals" should be trusted with such things. Folks in law enforcement won't be happy if the proponents of such legislation start arguing that they, too, should be prohibited from owning them



And a talking point that we should use again, and again, and again, and again... every time "special rights" are conferred on retired LEO's, who are after all.... *just like us*...


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Old February 14, 2013, 09:42 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Willie Sutton View Post
This ought to be a bit of an embarrassment to those making such proposals: it certainly undercuts their claim that only "trained professionals" should be trusted with such things. Folks in law enforcement won't be happy if the proponents of such legislation start arguing that they, too, should be prohibited from owning them



And a talking point that we should use again, and again, and again, and again... every time "special rights" are conferred on retired LEO's, who are after all.... *just like us*...


Willie


.
Retired? Look at the bad behavior of the ones still on the force in his case.

We've been discussing exactly this point, the increasing militarization of the police, on another board in relationship to the unprovoked shooting of the newspaper delivery women. That conversation started way before the house was burned down.

My point there has been that somehow the media will find a way to twist the facts into a media case that "trained police" are still the only ones qualified to carry guns because they shot up two completely innocent bystanders who engaged in no provocative behavior.

I dare say that had a military SpecOps team done this there would be a very serious disciplinary hearing going on now.
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Old February 14, 2013, 09:52 AM   #130
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^^^

I dare say that had a military SpecOps team done this there would be a very serious disciplinary hearing going on now.



Which is why I said earlier that if a building containing one known enemy combatant but possibly containing others was burned down by US Forces in Afghanistan, that there would be an investigation, trial, and likely conviction under the UCMJ for violation of the ROE and war crimes.


This is not supposition, it is fact. We, as a nation, would treat a Taliban with a tighter ROE than we treat our own citizens.

This speaks more to military discipline and professionalism than anything else, in absolute and stark contrast to the lack of discipline and professionalism exhibited daily by civilian law enforcement. That lack discipline is seen both at the most basic level, as well as at the technical level (witness the news video of the black officer armed with the SS Ruger Mini-14 walking around with his weapon held horizontally and his finger on the trigger).

These people are poorly trained, poorly qualified, and poorly lead. But they are better than we are and their lives have more value to society than ours have....



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Old February 14, 2013, 10:20 AM   #131
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They lobbed SEVEN of whatever "burners" are into that cabin. You'll never convince me their intent was just to release tear gas.
Aguila,

1)What was the square footage of the house?

2)What was the design of the house...was it a two story...was it a single story ranch...how many rooms inside....did it have an attic or loft...did it have a basement?

3)What kind of circulation/ventilation system did the house have?

4) Did Dorner have a mask? Too, knowing Dorners extensive training and the fact he probably knew LE may use burners to try and flush him out, did he have time to secure air vents/drafts in a centrally located room?



5) What exact kinds of 'burners' were used?

6)If house was a cut up ranch with a basement(as appears from aerial photos and what was reported) were all Seven canisters deployed on the upstairs level in one room or at different ends of the house? Were a few dropped into the basement level as well?

These are just a few questions(I'm sure there's more) that need to be answered before we can assume the amount of canister that were deployed were for the purpose of intentionally setting the house ablaze.

If the structure was a very small, single room dwelling with no basement then I would say your assumption would be more appropriate.
Looks as though the house was kind of a long T shaped structure and according to reports had a basement. Don't know how many rooms or cut up it was inside or if the basement was an open basement or divided into rooms as well. At this point, we don't even know where the canisters were deployed at in the house. All in one room?... most in one area?...spread out?...where and why were they deployed where they were?

Again, just things to consider before jumping to conclusions as to the reason for the number of burners used.

If it's found that LE intentionally set the structure ablaze, then yes, there should be a trial and those responsible held accountable.
But I will remain steadfast as to not prematurely convicting LE for doing so merely on the fact that seven burners were used or the background recordings of some revengeful backgrounds LEO's that were more then likely not calling the shots on the scene anyway.

I'm sure there will be an investigation and at this rate, possibly a Fed. one as well. We'll see!

Last edited by shortwave; February 14, 2013 at 10:46 AM.
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:39 AM   #132
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Nice non sequitir, Rifleman.

Nobody here is trying to make a hero out of Dorner.
The reference is to the talking heads at CNN at the link posted, as well as the nut jobs on the internet. However, claiming that law enforcement purposely burned Dorner alive, like a Japanese soldier on Iwo Jima, only feeds their fantasies. How about we wait until all the facts are in. Our legal system specifies the presumption of innocence for Dorner. How about giving that same presumption to the officers involved?
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Old February 14, 2013, 11:54 AM   #133
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Male voice: "Alright, Steve, we're gonna go, ah, we're gonna go forward with the plan with, ah, with the burner."

[unintelligible]

Male voice: "We want it, ah, like we talked about."

Male voice: "Seven burners deployed and we have a fire."

Female voice: "Copy, seven burners deployed and we have a fire."
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Old February 14, 2013, 12:16 PM   #134
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Our legal system specifies the presumption of innocence for Dorner. How about giving that same presumption to the officers involved?


Respect is given when respect is earned.

As an organization, the law enfiorcement agencies "in toto" do not deserve much respect here, based on shooting at innocent people, demonstrably bad and unsafe firearms handling, and many other demonstrable acts.

To think that they gave "presumption of innocence" to Dorner is a stretch.

With their collective credibility nonexistant, it's not a stretch to believe that they did not suddenly become model citizens when they had him cornered.


The entire incident is a revolting mess.


Willie

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Old February 14, 2013, 12:30 PM   #135
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Burners

Male voice: "Seven burners deployed and we have a fire."

If you listen to this, there's no "Oops" in there. It's a statement of cause and effect.

I know that there are members here who are a great deal more knowledgeable about such matters than I -- but, being a curious sort, I had a quick look into the technology of "burners," and came across this article by a SWAT lieutenant in FL. It describes a custom-made breaching ram mounted on an armored vehicle, and notes that "burn boxes, which are metal boxes used to encase burning smoke or CS canisters," may conveniently be mounted on such rams.

The writer goes on to note: "Unfortunately, the byproduct of the burn box can be fire, which can endanger innocent lives and nearby structures. The vehicle-mounted ram lessens the risk to other structures but still achieves the team’s goal of ending the incident with no loss of innocent lives." (My emphasis.)

I also came across an example of a "demolition vehicle" which may or may not be similar to that used by the S.B.S.D: the Rook. It looks like a Bobcat on steroids: it's armored, and it comes with a range of attachments including a breaching ram, grapple claw, and armored deployment platform. While a flamethrower isn't mentioned as one of the accessories, it would seem ideal for deploying a "burn box" in the manner described in the article linked above.
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Last edited by Vanya; February 14, 2013 at 12:47 PM. Reason: punctuation.
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Old February 14, 2013, 01:43 PM   #136
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In the laws that are written against the public they often use the words "knew or should have known". A good example is the Seizure and Forfeiture laws.

There is enough history of these units causing fires that the authorities "knew or should have known" that a fire would result from their deployment.
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Old February 14, 2013, 01:59 PM   #137
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Again, we can assume what the LEO meant by 'burners', we can assume how the burners were and where they were deployed and we can also assume the intentions for which they were employed...but unless we were there or unless we have some concrete proof of our assumptions ...that's all they are...assumptions. And should not be used to convict LE of any right or wrong doing.

Quote:
The entire incident is a revolting mess.
Yes Willie, couldn't agree more.

Too, the different events that happened, good or bad, from the very beginning to the end of this whole saga needs to be looked at and investigated individually and IMO, would be a mistake to clump everything together as a total success or failure.

I'm kinda getting the impression that that's what's been happening since the admitted wrongful, horrific shooting of the two ladies delivering papers in which there has been no viable reason or excuse given for by LE. Kinda makes whatever else that LE did after that to seem to be incompetent and possibly make people jump to conclusions with little facts and media reports. And we all know how accurate the media is when they are all trying to be the first to get the story out don't we. Hell, NBC has even been recently accused by another major network of out and out lying on stories pertaining to the election and as recent as the gun control issue .

But that's another story.

From experience, I just won't base my judgments on what the media is putting out. They have been known from time to time to leave out or ad-lib things to make them seem a little different then how they really are.

Last edited by shortwave; February 14, 2013 at 02:04 PM.
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Old February 14, 2013, 02:16 PM   #138
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In the laws that are written against the public they often use the words "knew or should have known". A good example is the Seizure and Forfeiture laws.

There is enough history of these units causing fires that the authorities "knew or should have known" that a fire would result from their deployment.
I agree, jimpeel. It would seem that "burners" is a strange slang phrase to use for gas or smoke canisters if they weren't well known to cause fires!
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Old February 14, 2013, 03:10 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Rifleman1952
If memory serves me correctly the victims at Waco & the members of Move, were not out hunting down and murdering police officers and their families. That's a big difference between those groups and Dorner
True, but the Branch Davidians at Waco were invovled in a massive firefight with Federal agents, which results in four dead BATFE men. In my opinion, the blooding given to the BATFE affected the FBI to the point to where they weren't going to let Koresh out alive.

And that is why I see a bunch of parallels to Waco and Dorner.

Similar number of law enforcement casualties, heavily armed opposition, near religious fevor in believes by the bad guy(s).
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Old February 14, 2013, 03:17 PM   #140
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"Burners" may be one expression that can be debated, but "Burn it down" and then having the cabin be on fire doesn't sound like an unfortunate use of terminology at all.

Quote:
1)What was the square footage of the house?

2)What was the design of the house...was it a two story...was it a single story ranch...how many rooms inside....did it have an attic or loft...did it have a basement?

3)What kind of circulation/ventilation system did the house have?

4) Did Dorner have a mask? Too, knowing Dorners extensive training and the fact he probably knew LE may use burners to try and flush him out, did he have time to secure air vents/drafts in a centrally located room?



5) What exact kinds of 'burners' were used?

6)If house was a cut up ranch with a basement(as appears from aerial photos and what was reported) were all Seven canisters deployed on the upstairs level in one room or at different ends of the house? Were a few dropped into the basement level as well?
Well, let's see, the cabin is nearly 100 years old, 1 story with a cellar approximately 10x10 feet and the sheriff's department were aware of the layout of the cabin because they had been informed of it. From the pictures, it looks to be no more than about 1500-1800 sq feet. From the description, about 6 rooms and the cellar.
http://www.myfoxla.com/video?clipId=...autostart=true
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Old February 14, 2013, 03:19 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by shortwave
Again, we can assume what the LEO meant by 'burners', we can assume how the burners were and where they were deployed and we can also assume the intentions for which they were employed...but unless we were there or unless we have some concrete proof of our assumptions ...that's all they are...assumptions. And should not be used to convict LE of any right or wrong doing.
Agreed. We're expressing opinions in this thread, and if our opinions didn't differ, there wouldn't be much point in having a conversation. But we do have some evidence of what took place, in the form of audio and video recordings, and our opinions reflect our interpretations of that evidence.

There's not much more to say, except that the whole thing is horrible, and should never have happened. Mr. Dorner is anything but a hero, but it seems to me that he does fit the classical definition of a tragic figure, a good man whose flaws were his own undoing. This may explain, at least in part, why so many people find this case so compelling. (I realize that many will disagree with this assessment of him; we should remember that he served his country with honor* both in the military and as a police officer, and if his account of his firing turns out to be true, his rage will be more understandable, and his response to it genuinely tragic.)
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*From Wikipedia:
Dorner was a former Naval Reserve lieutenant (O-3) who was honorably discharged.

Dorner was commissioned in 2002, commanded a security unit at Naval Air Station Fallon, Nevada, and served with a Mobile Inshore Undersea Warfare Unit from June 23, 2004, to February 28, 2006. He was deployed to Bahrain with Coastal Riverine Group Two from November 3, 2006, to April 23, 2007.[10] Dorner was honorably discharged from the Navy Reserve on February 1, 2013.

In 2002, Dorner and a classmate found a bag containing nearly $8,000 that belonged to Enid Korean Church of Grace in Enid, Oklahoma. They turned it in to the police. When asked their motive, Dorner said "it's an integrity thing." "The military stresses integrity," Dorner said. "There was a couple of thousand dollars, and if people are willing to give that to a church, it must be pretty important to them."
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Old February 14, 2013, 05:51 PM   #142
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Well, let's see, the cabin is nearly 100 years old, 1 story with a cellar approximately 10x10 feet and the sheriff's department were aware of the layout of the cabin because they had been informed of it. From the pictures, it looks to be no more than about 1500-1800 sq feet. From the description, about 6 rooms and the cellar.
Thanks DNS for that info.

Six rooms and a cellar. If all rooms and the cellar had an outside entry, could explain why seven burners were used. Just a thought.

Vanya,

You are probably right on your assessment of Dorner. Hell, John Wayne Gacy was well respected and admired as well.

If we could only figure out the mystery of what makes a person snap!
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Old February 14, 2013, 06:45 PM   #143
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Actually, my assessment of Gacy is a bit different: I'd say he was evil, and that's not a word I use lightly.

As to what makes some people snap, it's often not mysterious at all. The interesting question may be why more people don't. (Frogs and boiling water do come to mind here...)
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:24 PM   #144
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The interesting question may be why more people don't. (Frogs and boiling water do come to mind here...)
...and why can two different people go through very similar life situations and one person's brain short circuits while the others doesn't?

I don't believe anyone is born into this world already knowing to do bad or evil but rather learn to do so through life's experience's.

IMO, Dorner like Gacy, knew what he was doing. They both made prolonged, calculated, evil plans that extended over a period of time that was clearly not rational and had the results of both their plans was the same...death to innocent people.

Surely their motives were different and what caused them to short circuit was most likely different but both sought out and chose their victims, planned and executed their plans of attacks and both would have continued had they not met their fate.

Too, both had expressed good qualities and did good deeds in their earlier lives.

It's not so simple as to why or how these mental short circuits happen. If it was, those experts in places such as Virginia that have studied the mind/brain for years looking for the reason/reasons would have found it.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:33 PM   #145
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The fact remains that what stopped Dorner was the mechanical failure of his truck and his inability to tie a sufficient restraint to hold those people until he could make his getaway.

We will see if the authorities make good on the reward they offered for information leading to his capture. That was certainly provided by the couple he tied up who subsequently escaped and told of his whereabouts and what he was driving.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:48 PM   #146
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We will see if the authorities make good on the reward they offered for information leading to his capture. That was certainly provided by the couple he tied up who subsequently escaped and told of his whereabouts and what he was driving.
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The reward was contingent on conviction, I believe.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:04 PM   #147
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The difference between the Dorner incident and Waco is the initiation of the fighting. In Waco the gubment launched an unprovoked attack on the Waco compound based upon a warrant illegally obtained through false evidence and assumptions.

The Dorner incident is an LEO response to attack from a criminal bent on murder/revenge and known kidnapping etc.

Whether fire is a valid response is of academic interest. But it was a response to criminal activity that had to be stopped. The more delay taken to capture or kill Dorner put the LE community and civilians at risk.

For my money I think they did the right thing.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:08 PM   #148
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But it was a response to criminal activity that had to be stopped.
And to those who think the police acted criminally by burning Dorner alive, you would be okay with them acting as judge and meting out whatever punishment they think is appropriate?
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:28 PM   #149
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For my money I think they did the right thing.
If they did the right thing, they need to say so, and own it. Or even if it was the wrong thing due to poor judgement during a crisis.

The sheriff is lying when he says the fire was unintentional. And there is no investigation (unless he's lying about that too.)
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Old February 15, 2013, 04:04 PM   #150
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This scene in Big Bear is more like Ruby Ridge than Waco. The fact that they discussed a burnout before the situation evolved should not go well in an investigation. The next nut case may consider a different hostage policy. Remember, they're nuts, not stupid. I don't like solutions that permanently shut mouths, to the benefit of a party many continue to hold suspect in it's actions. This mess really damages law enforcement. I'm talking respect.
Next time a burnout is needed, call the Air Force! That's an old lesson, known as 'Nam style gardening.
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