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Old January 15, 2013, 01:55 PM   #1
madmax1854
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Join Date: June 6, 2009
Posts: 6
Bravo Co upper problems

I bought an 11.5" Bravo Co upper last month, attached my brand new Thunderbeast 223A, and the first shot was a baffle strike. I ended up returning the can and upper to Thunderbeast, whe sent me pics of the problem, which was the lack of an undercut directly behind the threads, which did not allow my can to line up correctly. Bravo Co is now telling me that the barrel is fine, I just didn't have a gunsmith install "shims" on my barrel that should have been provided with my suppressor, and didn't have my suppressor "timed"... How do you "time" a suppressor?

The email chain is below. Can someone please tell me what the hell they're talking about?

<snip>

So what you're saying, is that the makers of all the cans I own are all unaware of the need for shims to "time" my suppressors, all failed to supply me with these shims, which all work just fine on all my other barrels, and you know more about fitting a suppressor than the guys who make a living manufacturing them. They forbid using any type of washer! The can uses the shoulder to line up! Any washer or shim screws the alignment up! *** is going on over there? How do you "time" <snip> suppressor?

There IS something wrong with the barrel, and this customer service is absolutely insulting. There's no way to actually talk to anyone there, and I have to email you morons 8 times just to get replies from someone who has no goddamn idea what they're talking about.

This email chain is going on every forum I can find.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 15, 2013, at 12:07 PM, <info@bravocompanyusa.com> wrote:

The shims must be used and come with silencers to time the silencer. The shims in- turn also fill the gap where threads end and the shoulder of the barrel starts. Only a qualified gunsmith should install these. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the barrel.


info@bravocompanyusa.com
Bravo Company USA, Inc.
www.Bravocompanyusa.com
www.bravocompanyMFG.com

<image001.jpg>

<image002.png> <image003.png> <image004.gif> <image005.png>



From: Dan Hahn [mailto:dhahn8@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:16 AM
To: info@bravocompanyusa.com
Subject: Re: Contact Us Submission

I don't understand where the issue of shims comes in here. I never mentioned shims, and the use of washers or shims probably voids the warranty on the suppressor, they're not supposed to be used, and there should be absolutely no need for a "shim". The whole issue here is that the barrel you used on the upper I bought is not machined correctly, it doesn't allow the base of the can to contact the shoulder of the muzzle, therefore the can cannot properly align with the bore, therefore I have baffle strikes. I even sent you pictures of this.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 15, 2013, at 9:34 AM, <info@bravocompanyusa.com> wrote:

Thank you for the info Dan, very helpful. How many shims were used to attach the suppressor? What was the width of each shim used? Please let us know.

info@bravocompanyusa.com
Bravo Company USA, Inc.
www.Bravocompanyusa.com
www.bravocompanyMFG.com

<image001.jpg>

<image002.png> <image003.png> <image004.gif> <image005.png>



From: Dan Hahn [mailto:dhahn8@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:08 AM
To: info@bravocompanyusa.com
Subject: Re: Contact Us Submission

1. It was a complete upper, new, the 11.5" with a LaRue rail, from Tilly's Armory in Burnet, Tx on 12/22/12.
2. It was not a build.
3. The exact malfunction was that I attached a brand new Thunderbeast suppressor, and the first shot ricocheted of the ground in front of me, and there was obviously a baffle strike. I returned the suppressor still attached to the place I had bought it, and they sent the suppressor and upper back to Thunderbeast. They sent me the pictures and email I am attaching.
4. It was a Bravo Co BCG and charging handle
5. Ammo was 55gr Hornady Steel Match HP
6. Pmag 30rd
7. There is a Timney trigger installed

Here is the email from Thunderbeast:

Hi Dan,
We received your upper and suppressor today. The barrel shoulder is the problem.

Specifically, the radius at the junction of the shoulder and the lack of undercut behind the threads as shown in the picture below.




With the suppressor screwed on hand tight, the rear of the suppressor does not contact the barrel shoulder as seen below.


Here is another view.



The damage to the suppressor is only cosmetic and the barrel shoulder can be trued up.

Please call me at your convenience and let me how you want to proceed.

--


Shane Coppinger
Thunder Beast Arms Corp.
307-287-2052
888-447-2770 fax

<image006.jpg>
<image007.jpg>
<image008.jpg>





Sent from my iPad


On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:39 AM, <info@bravocompanyusa.com> wrote:



Couple questions for you Dan.

1. You purchased a stripped barrel or an upper receiver group? From where?
2. Is this a build put together by you?
3. When you shoot, what is the exact malfunction?
4. Bolt carrier group you are using?
5. Ammo used?
6. Mags used?
7. Any accessories added to the weapon system? I.E. BAD lever, competition buffer, competition trigger?

Please let us know so that we can assist you.

info@bravocompanyusa.com
Bravo Company USA, Inc.
www.Bravocompanyusa.com
www.bravocompanyMFG.com








-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Hahn [mailto:dhahn8@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:33 PM
To: info@bravocompanyusa.com
Subject: Re: Contact Us Submission

I did email you, that's what you replied to. I want to speak with someone there about how the shoulder of the end of your barrel is so out of whack that it caused my suppressor to have baffle strikes. I want to know if you are going to compensate me for the cost of having your barrel trued so that attachments can be used without ruining them. I want to know how I can go buy a $1200 upper and it be such a piece of <snip>.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2013, at 7:28 AM, <info@bravocompanyusa.com> wrote:

Hi Dan,

Thank you for contacting us. We do appreciate your business. Please
email any questions you have so that we can assist you.

info@bravocompanyusa.com
Bravo Company USA, Inc.
www.Bravocompanyusa.com
www.bravocompanyMFG.com



date: 1/8/2013
name: Dan Hahn
email: Dhahn8@gmail.com
phone: 214-223-6300
message:
I purchased one of your uppers, an 11.5" model to run a Thunderbeast
223A can, and the shoulder was so out of shack I had a baffle strike.
I can't believe the lack of precision you guys send out barrels with,
and you have no phone number on your site for people to call you directly?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (235.7 KB, 28 views)
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Last edited by Spats McGee; February 13, 2013 at 03:22 PM. Reason: Removed profanity.
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Old January 15, 2013, 02:16 PM   #2
Lark
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Anytime you attach a silencer to a barrel take a look down the bore to ensure it is aligned properly. A silencer misaligned enough to cause a baffle strike will be obviously canted to one side.

I have never heard of or seen shims used to align a silencer to a threaded barrel and I have seen more than a few. Get your barrel threaded properly and forget the shims. Can you post a photo of the barrel/threads?

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Old January 15, 2013, 02:53 PM   #3
madmax1854
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Here is a close up of the problem.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (229.2 KB, 65 views)
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Old January 15, 2013, 10:24 PM   #4
Lark
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Does the back of the rear end cap butt up against the barrel in back of the threads? If it doesn't then this is the likely cause of the misalignment. Threads are only supposed to hold the thing on, not properly align it.

Here is a thread guide. http://www.silencertalk.com/AAC-thread-guide.pdf Some look like yours, others have a relief groove. I think a relief groove is going to solve your problems. I would go with whatever advice the silencer maker gives.

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Last edited by Lark; January 15, 2013 at 10:36 PM.
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Old January 15, 2013, 10:51 PM   #5
madmax1854
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I appreciate your response, I know what the problem is, I put that in the first few emails to Bravo Co that are in my post. The pic attached at the bottom of my first post shows daylight between the can and shoulder. Thunderbeast is fixing the problem.

My point is that Bravo Co is telling me about how I need to "time" my thread on can with shims. How can a major manufacturer be so clueless? Not only that, but it's like they're not even reading the emails and I'm corresponding with the Bravo Co secretary who doesn't know anything.

I was kinda wondering if anybody has had this issue before and is there a working phone number to actually speak to someone who knows what's going on? I called the one I could find (not on their website) and its just a recording saying to email them. This whole thing is inexcusable.
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:31 AM   #6
musher
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I believe you're right about the barrel, but reading your emails, I can't help but think of the old saw about flies, honey, and vinegar.

Sounds like no serious damage was done. I'd have thunderbeast turn the barrel and get on with life, I think.

I suppose you have to ask yourself how much stress the whole thing is worth to you.
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Old February 6, 2013, 09:36 PM   #7
AR15barrels
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Almost all of the suppressor makers have published thread specs that call out a clearance cut behind the thread tendon so that you end up with a nice square shoulder to seat Thea direct mount can against.
on the cans that use a mount on the barrel, the mount will generally come with shims and rocksett.
The better muzzle devices and cans will have a counterbore in the threads to account for the lack of threads on typical factory barrels such as your bravo company barrel.

When I thread barrels, I have a nice clearance cut behind the thread tennon.

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Old February 8, 2013, 11:01 AM   #8
tgreening
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I'm guessing the person on the phone when hearing suppressor was thinking flash suppressor/muzzle break and not silencer. I can see in this case where washers/shims might be used in order to index the muzzle device properly. Yes no maybe? I know squat all about silencer construction and what-not but I have seen other muzzle devices that need to be oriented specifically and would imagine this is accomplished via the washer/shims mentioned.


Or I could be so full of **** I stink, as grandma was fond of saying occasionally.
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Old February 11, 2013, 01:35 AM   #9
Zak Smith
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Hi Dan,

I'm sorry you had that problem.

I can't say why they cut their threads that way, but one reasonable explanation might be that 99.9% of their customers use a muzzle device (flash hider or muzzle brake) which is timed used a crush or peel washer. Not making the root cut at the back of the threads is one less machine op during manufacturing.

-z
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Old February 12, 2013, 01:25 PM   #10
AR15barrels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith View Post
I can't say why they cut their threads that way, but one reasonable explanation might be that 99.9% of their customers use a muzzle device (flash hider or muzzle brake) which is timed used a crush or peel washer. Not making the root cut at the back of the threads is one less machine op during manufacturing.

-z
Zak-

I see a lot of factory barrels of all manufacturers through my shop for service work and probably 95% of them do not have a clearance cut behind the threads.
Only custom threaded barrels get the clearance cut.
This is because most gunsmiths use a manual lathe and you need the clearance to start or stop the threading tool against the barrel shoulder.
On a factory produced barrel made on a CNC machine, the machine does not need to make a relief cut behind the threads as it can just get the threading tool out of the way on its own.

In my opinion, any 1/2-28 thread direct mount suppressor should have a 1/8" counterbore to accommodate all factory barrels.
That way, this situation can never occur.
Every suppressor QD mount I have seen has had the cut so that the mount can be tightened all the way against the barrel shoulder.
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Old February 13, 2013, 01:47 AM   #11
Zak Smith
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Actually our cans do have such a cut, but this barrel had a longer section than any other barrel we've seen so far, to my knowledge. My Noveske barrels all mount our cans flawlessly.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:53 AM   #12
AR15barrels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith View Post
Actually our cans do have such a cut, but this barrel had a longer section than any other barrel we've seen so far, to my knowledge.
Maybe it's time to update your product user manual with a small section about ensuring that the can seats against the barrel shoulder then if you don't already have such a statement.
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Old February 15, 2013, 04:11 AM   #13
Zak Smith
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It's been in the instructions since the beginning.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:46 PM   #14
AR15barrels
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Bravo Co upper problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith View Post
It's been in the instructions since the beginning.
Then someone did not read them!
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