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Old February 13, 2013, 10:09 PM   #1
Willie Sutton
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Meanwhile in New Jersey

My former home state, where orals are freshly heard regarding what might very well open up CCW laws, we have this gem:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/ny...laws.html?_r=0


A New Jersey Assembly comittee today voted to push forward with a series of some 20 new gun laws, including the requirement for ammuniton sales to be done face to face, placing a 5 year renewal on the state required firearms ID card, and a number of other draconian measures that, when added to the already existing laws, would make NJ the leader in the race to the bottom of second amendment rights.


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Old February 13, 2013, 10:30 PM   #2
2ndsojourn
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Yeah, I just saw that in another thread, but that article only addressed about three bills, not a dozen. I guess I'll get letters out to the local assemblymen/women as well as Chris Christie. It'll be interesting to see what he signs....er....doesn't sign off on.

BTW: I'm glad George Washington was at the meeting.
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:56 PM   #3
Al Norris
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Just read the package of 20 bills referenced in the NY Times article. Good Lord! And this is just the tip of the iceberg, if all 43 bills are sent up for a vote!
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Old February 13, 2013, 11:29 PM   #4
Willie Sutton
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^^^

Al, it's a race to the bottom. This is not about gun control, it's about passing the most silly of laws, so silly that the Governer will be almost required to veto them on the face of their farcical intents. That will then give the loyal opposition debate points should Christie seek national office in 4 years. Veto these and become a "blood on your hands NRA supporter" and fail to veto them and have the 2nd Amendment activists at your throat. It's a Hobsons Choice for Christie.

I suspect that he will veto the bills, based on two things: One, it would be the right thing to do, and he is famous here for doing the right thing under most circumstances. Second, the folks that hate him already do, and hating him a little more won't help. He cannot afford politically to antagonize his base.

With that said, he's not a "Gun Guy". He's an Urban East-Coast Republican. So he's not spring loaded to the 2nd Amendment position by default. He does have a very finely tuned sense of fair play, however, and I remain hopeful.


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Old February 14, 2013, 06:18 AM   #5
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It is a race for the bottom. I saw a news article a few days ago that CT is also proposing some astronomical number of new anti-gun laws this session.

Place your bets now ...
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Old February 14, 2013, 06:19 AM   #6
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I can guarantee that Christie will pass the 10 round limit and ban on internet ammo purchases. The others are up for grabs.

This is the REAL Chris Christie.

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Old February 14, 2013, 07:22 AM   #7
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@NJGUNOWNER-- How old is that add for assembly? So far I am standing by Christie. I dont like all that he has done, but in comparison to what we have seen a (McGreevy, Corzine, Witman) he is a gem. Also consider the alternatives that our great state will push in his absence. Menendez, Sweeney, Booker and any others King Norcross likes.
We have to keep the pressure on CC to do the right thing. We currently are restricted to a 15rnd magazine, if he gives in to 10 rnd in order to crush the other proposals than Ill deal with it. With the exception of some pistols you cant get 15rnd mags anyway.
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Old February 14, 2013, 07:45 AM   #8
Ajtozzi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoogieMan View Post
@NJGUNOWNER-- We currently are restricted to a 15rnd magazine, if he gives in to 10 rnd in order to crush the other proposals than Ill deal with it. With the exception of some pistols you cant get 15rnd mags anyway.
I have to respectfully disagree with that logic. If you can deal with more mag limited then you can "deal with" mental health exams and an agent coming to your home. If you give these people an inch they take a yard.

For what it's worth I think Christie will sign about five of the current bills and veto some of the off the walls ones, which should appease both sides.
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Old February 14, 2013, 08:48 AM   #9
tynman
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boogieman that is way we should give them the 4 year term once we vote them in and if (when) they start to act funny and stupid and start getting richer then they already are we should vote them out on there asses and hard, to show them that we are not stupid and we see what they are doing. And not make them career polititions... But we all have to stand together and make it happen... And thats from the president down to the little towns board of ed members....

I gave CC my vote last time only to get bow zoe the clown (Corzine) out. And if they dont come out with someone that I think will do right by the blue calor worker and leave us alone so we can feed our families (and not there pockets) I may not vote.
I like some things CC has done but there are more things I dont like what he has done so I my not vote that way this time...

Last edited by tynman; February 14, 2013 at 01:21 PM.
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:02 AM   #10
Willie Sutton
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^^^ 100% absolutely correct.

There is a point in many counties of NJ where even typically Democratic voters will vote the other way, simply over 2nd Amendment issues. In entrenched Dem political machine territory (Essex, Hudson, Camden counties) we may as not even bother to speak. But in solidly blue collar yet working rural counties, like Salem and Cape May, the typical vote has been Democratic, although that's more of a fact of inertia than actual cultural affinity. If NJ gun owners begin targeting the representatives in these locations the balance of power might well shift. So I am not so sure that the entire Democratic delegation will feel so strongly about passing things thru the full house and the full senate.


Tynman (above) is the classic case. In his own words he writes:


I gave CC my vote last time only to get bow zoe the clown (Corzine) out. And if they dont come out with someone that I think will do right by the blue calor worker and leave us alone so we can feed our families (and not there pockets) I may not vow. I like some things CC has done but there are more things I dont like what he has done so I my not vote that way this time...


I don't want to put words in his mouth (and am happy to stand corrected if he wishes), but this seems to me to typify the working class swing voter who although he is culturally affiliated with firearms, from a social standing class probably tends to be more affiliated with the ideals of the Democrats. He is not a one-issue voter. 2nd Amendment ideas are one consideration, but not his only consideration. It's this vote that we need to secure if we are to prevail in NJ. It's counting on this wishy-washy vote with a little pandering at the right time of the season and a little fear mongering towards his wife that has kept the Dems in power this long in NJ.



So:

Ya'll down south o' the Mason-Dixon line ought to start getting out the vote. Who else but me knows that everything south of Atlantic City NJ is also south of Baltimore, and that Cape May is about the same number of degrees south as Washington DC? Get to some political action down there guys! The Damned Yankees up in Sussex County need some backup.


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 14, 2013 at 10:46 AM.
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Old February 14, 2013, 11:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
With that said, he's not a "Gun Guy". He's an Urban East-Coast Republican.
He's not a gun guy period. He's the inevitable Republican answer to the myriad Democrats in my area that enjoy shooting. Most of us know and have pointed out numerous times that a great many Liberals and Democrats like firearms, and attacking generic libs isn't a good plan. He shows that assuming the generic conservative defends the 2A isn't any more accurate.

On the issues website where Christie is quoted as saying there are too many firearms in our community
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Old February 15, 2013, 09:08 AM   #12
tynman
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The only bill out of the 20 of them that they are trying to pass in NJ that I can see that makes cents is the firearms ID card with a photo. Now to renew it every 5 years is another way of them getting money from us hard working people. The one license that should have a renewal date is a marriage license but that one they wont put an expiration date on it!!!!! LOL
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Old February 15, 2013, 04:11 PM   #13
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I do not think that a firearms ID card is constitutional...given Heller calles bearing arms a fundimental "right", and another (don't remember which one) ruling stated that you cannot license a "right", because if you do, it becomes a privilage, and is no longer a "right".
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Old February 15, 2013, 06:58 PM   #14
publius42
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There are certainly a lot of objections to Voter ID cards to exercise that right, but the same people won't object to Gun Owner ID cards.
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Old February 15, 2013, 07:36 PM   #15
TDL
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I do not think that a firearms ID card is constitutional
there are already u.s. jurisdictions where you need to have the original full size permit to own with you even when going to the range, and in my jurisdiction you are supposed to have it on you when buying ammo. I would prefer a wallet sized copy.
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Old February 15, 2013, 08:30 PM   #16
JimDandy
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Quote:
I do not think that a firearms ID card is constitutional...given Heller calles bearing arms a fundimental "right", and another (don't remember which one) ruling stated that you cannot license a "right", because if you do, it becomes a privilage, and is no longer a "right".
In the tradition of innocent until proven guilty, its not Unconstitutional until it's challenged in court.
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:06 PM   #17
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by publius42
There are certainly a lot of objections to Voter ID cards to exercise that right, but the same people won't object to Gun Owner ID cards.
Different animal. The voter ID is not something you have to buy in order to vote, it's only to prove that you are who you say you are when you show up to vote. I'm about as strict/originalist as they come with respect to the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment, but I have no problem with asking people to show ID when they vote. Maybe it's because I don't think in the 41 years I've been a voter I have ever been allowed to vote withOUT showing ID, but I think it's only proper. I don't think I'd be very happy if I showed up at the polling place after work and they told me I had already voted in the morning.
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Old February 16, 2013, 04:27 AM   #18
TDL
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In the tradition of innocent until proven guilty, its not Unconstitutional until it's challenged in court.
I understand and agree. As far as I am concerned it is like freedom of speech. since it is specifically spelled out as a right I think a starting point of any new law as unconstitutional until tested in court is a healthy theoretical attitude.

I was just pointing out that such licenses already do exist. I am not referring to carry license, but license to own. I don't know if those state level requirements have been tested yet.

I know my jurisdiction has such a requirement, and you have to have each registration with you even when transporting the firearm unloaded in your trunk. And in our case you even must have a registration with you when in possession of only ammunition.

Again, in my jurisdiction If you are transporting a weapon unloaded and do not have the valid and current (ours expire every three years) registration papers for each firearm right there with you at all moments the firearm leaves address of registration, or even ammo alone, you are subject to a firearms violation.
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Old February 16, 2013, 09:29 PM   #19
tynman
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TDL what state are you in?
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Old February 22, 2013, 12:13 PM   #20
tynman
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MY MISTAKE the bills were only approved by the assembly so the Gov hasn't even seen them yet...


Well it looks like the Gov has not vetoed the 5 year renewal on the firearms ID cards, no mag over 10 rounds, no armor piercing ammo, mental checks and you will need a safety course before any permits are issued...

More ways for them to make money off the hard working people in NJ...
I cant wait to retire and move out of this state..... If your going to be looking for me you can follow my smoke....

Last edited by tynman; February 22, 2013 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Did a little more research.
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Old February 22, 2013, 02:36 PM   #21
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tynman, I believe the state senate has yet to vote on those measures, but given what's happening it will probably pass along party lines. And they have yet to land on Gov Christie's desk. Right now it's only speculative what Christie will do.
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Old February 22, 2013, 03:57 PM   #22
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Christie won't see the bills until April at the earliest.
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Old February 22, 2013, 07:37 PM   #23
tynman
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2ndsojourn I did a little more digging after I posted that last post and found out that the assembly passed it.. Im just hoping that the Gov's friend thats on here talks to him and can show him how usless those bills will be in NJ. I am going to say NJ is in the top 5 state that is the hardest to own any kind of fire arms....
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Old February 22, 2013, 10:11 PM   #24
JimDandy
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Christie isn't all that 2A friendly. Don't get your hopes up.
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Old February 22, 2013, 10:23 PM   #25
Willie Sutton
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It's going to be interesting....

My guess... Chris will probably veto some and approve some... upsetting everyone and making nobody perfectly happy. The Dems have set him up to be hated by the other Dems unless he passes it all, and put into a position where he will be hurt at the national level if he decides to run for higher office in 2016 if he does not veto it all. In any event it's bad for everyone. This is high stakes national politics, not truly a NJ 2nd Amendment issue. It's all about weakening a possible national candidate for 2016.

We will see.


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 22, 2013 at 10:29 PM.
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