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Old February 13, 2013, 12:22 AM   #1
TheDutchman19
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Nosler E-Tip 180gn

Hey guys

I'm going to start developing a load for my 30/06 hunting rifle. I needed a lead-free bullet because I live and hunt in The People's Republic California.

When I opened the bullet box, a card fell out suggesting to seat the bullet between 0.050 to 0.090 off the lands. I normally seat my bullets based on the Ogive, but typically find that 0.010 to 0.030 off the lands is the sweet spot.

At $35 per fifty, I am really hoping to figure out before I spend a fortune. Is the increased distance off the lands common with lead-free bullets? Does any one have any past experience with these bullets?
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Old February 13, 2013, 07:08 AM   #2
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Yep, Dutchman I talked to a Nosler tech and his thoughts were somewhere along the lines that this bullet is so long that it needs the extra jump to get it started correctly into the lands when the primer is struck, he also related the need for minimum to mid-level powder weights.
I have tested the 150 grain E-Tip with Imr 4350 and so far it's been good but not conclusive as of yet. ( 1inch groups at 100yds, and I'm expecting 3/4 or less)
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Old February 13, 2013, 12:26 PM   #3
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Funny to see someone else loading this bullet.A friend bought some to try all so,but the first test was a really bad one.( we didn't get a card in his box )

The test rifle is a 20" SPS R700 with a 1:12 twist.First load was with 4064 ( 40gn ) and loaded at 2.800.Have to say that I've seen 00 buckshot shot better.Now I have went back and found that the C.O.A.L for his rifle is at 2.975 with this 180gn bullet.At this time I have 2 more set's of three loaded to try.First set of three are at 42gn of 4064,and the second set at 46gn of R17.I even put this bullet ( 180gn E-tip ) up beside a 208gn A-max,found it to be all most as tall.When I saw it was just as tall,I then choose R17 for a test powder.( used it with a 208gn A-max ) and had good results ) So I hope that one of the loads works out for him,as the OP said they are not cheap.

If anyone can answer this please do. Is it true that the barrel needs to be really clean when testing or shooting this type of bullet? Read a time or two that all copper bullets being much longer for their weight,cause worse fouling in the barrel.I know in some way its got to be true,for Barns and Hornady cut or form their copper bullets with groves in them. ( for this reason right )
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Old February 13, 2013, 01:55 PM   #4
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When testing a new load I always start with a clean bore, I usually do not clean bore at the range, because I usually only shoot 10-15 shots, at a trip per rifle to be tested.
However if it makes you feel better about your loads take a cleaning rod to the range, and swab that sucker every 15-20 shots.
I don't get hung up on fouling anymore, since It never gets to degrading accuracy, because I don't shoot my rifles that much at one setting.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:30 PM   #5
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I feel ya man,for I too ounce was an over cleaner,always took the range box and cleaned between loads.Now I just shoot as long as its the same powder for the same bullet,but will sometimes shoot a one time test load with a different powder or bullet.

Just wanted to make sure I herad right well read right.For I know the solids will leave a bit more in the bore,again read this.
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:40 PM   #6
TheDutchman19
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I completely know what you mean when you say it had 00 buckshot accuracy. When I first bought the rifle for a hunting trip, I picked up some of their E-Tip loaded ammo. It was a little pricey, but you know what they say "You get what you pay for".

I expected it to be great ammo. It did there 3.5" to 4" groups. So I put the last 5 rounds away. Some time later, I pulled it out and measured it. The Ogive was jammed 0.060 into the lands. That explains it. I hope this next go around is a little more rewarding.

Does anyone have any suggestions with some of the other lead-free options.
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Old February 14, 2013, 02:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Does anyone have any suggestions with some of the other lead-free options.
Yes. I tried the Hornady GMX in my 300 WSM- Browning A-bolt.









Those were fired into water-filled gallon milk jugs sitting end to end @ 100 yards. Velocity was right at 3100 fps.

Group size was right at an inch, plenty small for a magnum, and all the better that Browning skinny barrel could do.

Hornady says the low end of the velocity is around 2000 fps, IIRC. But the streamlined shape makes this a long range bullet in a magnum. It might make a difference for an -06, limiting range for it to open reliably.

The Hornady and the Nosler E-tip are guilding metal bullets. Barnes are pure copper. Therefore the Horn. and Nosler will not foul as bad as the pure copper Barnes. Besides, the relief rings on the Hornady bullets, make for less bore contact, reducing fouling, drag, and heat.

I would take a long look at the 150 grain Hornady GMX for the -06. You can drive it faster so it holds velocity longer. Another thing is the longer the bullet the higher twist rate that you need. That long 180 E-tip might be marginally stable, hence the lousy groups.
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Old February 14, 2013, 09:17 AM   #8
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Snuffy I feel ya man I really do.Thats why after seeing it was real close to being the same length as a 208gn A-max I went to R17.Again his barrel is only 20 inches,so R17 should push the E-tip as it did and does the A-max for the guys that still shoot them. ( same rifle ) Its just that I walked away from the 208 in my rifle and had some R17 left to try.

The best part about this whole test is that he only bought 50 to try,and that he was told that he had bought the Partion. ( he's new to this ) So if I can get it to shoot I guess he'll want more,but if not then that will be that last of them.Here in SC we don't have to shoot solids,thank the Lord for that one.
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Old February 14, 2013, 04:06 PM   #9
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Nice results Snuffy, I will probably pick up a box of those dudes for testing.
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:54 AM   #10
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Easy...if you have to use lead free use the best, use Barnes and if you weren't aware...start the seating at least 0.050" off, regardless of brand they all like to be jumped a little. And that's not a random opinion I've emailed Hornady, Barnes, and Nosler about where to start and they all recommended a minimum of .050 and going back from there if necessary.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:50 PM   #11
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I don't think I seat my Barnes that deep, I think they are just right at .010 off the lands, and they shoot 3/4 moa or less at 100 yds.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:11 PM   #12
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Easy...if you have to use lead free use the best, use Barnes
Phooey! They also cost a lot more. Better? Who gets to judge? That of course is your opinion,,,---right?

Barnes have a reputation for NOT expanding. Penciling right through, resulting in wounded animals.

They also have a history of excessive bore fouling. Causing them to "coat" them with something akin to molly, to reduce bore friction and eliminate fouling.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:41 PM   #13
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Well, I'm committed. I loaded some small batches in varying charge weights. I loaded each batch three times, at varying ogives: 0.030, 0.050 & 0.070 off lands. Between the rounds and chronograph I should learn something.

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Old February 15, 2013, 05:52 PM   #14
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Snuffy, your info may be a tad dated. Barnes are not coated any longer and they have not fouled 5 or 6 of my rifles any worse than cup and core. We shot a lot of plains game 2 years back and quite a few deer since then---No pencils. All dead as fast as shot placement indicated. Sitka deer and bushbuck thru eland. 60# thru 1900#
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Old February 16, 2013, 12:05 PM   #15
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The Barnes is my choice in all of my rifles, from .243 to 45/70 and here's why: The GMX and E-Tip are both gilding metal. The GMX has relief grooves in it like the Barnes which may allow higher velocities, but I could never get 'em to shoot tight groups in my guns. The E-Tip does not and can not be driven to the same velocities as the Barnes. These monolithic bullets (IMO) need to be driven fast to perform. And they do perform. I've killed dozens of hogs with the Barnes and all of the bullets recovered could be sold as an advertisement for Barnes. Beautiful setback and 100% weight retention. Accuracy is under 1/2" for my four bolt rifles and right at an inch in my Sharps. Fouling seems to be an issue more with the particular rifle than the bullet. My Browning A-Bolt is fussy and needs thorough cleaning after 30 rounds or so. Definitely have to use an ammonia based bore solvent.

I shoot the Barnes out of preference and shoot it even when I don't have to. I have taken them to Wyoming and killed elk and mule deer with them and they do a fantastic job. I have found that it's better to go light rather than heavy. My favorite weight in the .300 is the 168 gr. TTSX and in the 7 mm rem mag the 140 TTSX. The 80 grainer in the .243 loaded with the new Superformance powder is wicked fast at 3,630 fps out of my 22" BDL and 1/2" groups. It turns coyotes inside out and performs well on medium hogs.

Problems with fouling and failure to open were common with the older X bullet but they've done a great job of producing a hunting bullet that really works.
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Old February 16, 2013, 01:57 PM   #16
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Myfriendis410, you definetly do not have to use an ammonia based cleaner for copper use Bore Tech Eliminator, it beats ammonia based cleaners hands down.
Also what kind of accuracy and performance do you get from that .284 TTSX 140 grainer?
Have you taken game with that load? and have you recovered any bullets from that loading?

I also have read where Barnes changed the tip of their bullet so it wouldn't be prone to "pencil" through game without opening up.
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Old February 16, 2013, 02:26 PM   #17
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Since I have little time with this type of bullet,and reading some of the post here,I can agree it takes more FPS to get these things to shoot.Again I am working with a 20 inch barrel and have to load the bullet long so that I can add more powder in the case.As I said before I had some R17 from when I loaded a 208gn A-max in my rifle.Now knowing that both bullets being almost the same length tells me I have to get them faster than a basic NBT in the same weight.

My last load comes in at 2.965 which is .010 short from the lands of his rifel.I went with 46.0gn of R17 for a test load,and even went with 42.0gn of 4064.I hope to go and shoot these loads Tuesday and see if anything changes.If not I just might try to se if they shoot in my rifle since I have 4 more inches of barrel.I 'll even go on to say that when the last bullet has been shot,I hope I never see an E-tip again or like it.Ya'll can have them thats for sure.
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Old February 16, 2013, 06:05 PM   #18
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Snuffy, your info may be a tad dated. Barnes are not coated any longer and they have not fouled 5 or 6 of my rifles any worse than cup and core. We shot a lot of plains game 2 years back and quite a few deer since then---No pencils. All dead as fast as shot placement indicated. Sitka deer and bushbuck thru eland. 60# thru 1900#
Yes, turn the pages back about 10 years, maybe 15. I have a poor memory for when I read something.

Here's what I know, or have read about the failure to open problem. A guy,(again I can't remember his name), went to work for Barnes. He is a metallurgist. He tracked the problem down to their failure to do one last anneal to the copper bullet,AFTER the final pointing stage. They annealed, then put the point on the bullet, causing the point to work harden. It was unreliable for expansion.

Simply annealing after the final point forming, left the copper dead soft so it reliably expands every time.

There's 2 Barnes bullets I DO use. The .223 62 tsx-bt and the Barnes expander 50 cal sabot for black powder rifles. Both perform very well.

The Nosler and Hornady monolithic bullets are cheaper and the Hornady has an excellent BC for long range hunting.
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Old February 16, 2013, 10:16 PM   #19
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Hooligan: I've been using the Barnes CR10 for the last five or six years to good affect. I haven't tried anything else since my last bottle of Butch's emptied out.

All of the bullets I referenced have been used by me to kill numerous animals, mainly hogs in Central Coast of California. The 140 gr. TTSX handload was used last February to down a 150 lb. (gutted weight) boar shot at just under 200 yards. He went straight down and the bullet was not recovered. Personally I prefer two holes to leak, but some of these hogs have big plates that eat bullets like no tomorrow. They will flat stop an arrow.
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Old February 16, 2013, 10:49 PM   #20
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Of course that was my opinion, dang people are touchy about their bullets . And another one mentioned seating depth of the lead free stuff....of course every gun is different and there aren't really any "rules" for what will or won't work...the depth recommendations I mentioned were just info from the factory..fun stuff
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Old February 17, 2013, 02:00 PM   #21
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I found pictures of two 140 TTSX's taken from a boar I shot using a Ruger 77 in 7mm rem mag. Target groups were sub 1/2" at 100 yards and the hog was killed at 180 yards. First shot broke the upper leg bone, transited the plate (3" thick), broke two ribs, broke the off-side upper leg bone and lodged under the skin on the off side. The second shot was just above his bunghole and was found lodged in the ribs behind the right shoulder. The hog gutted out at 262 lbs.
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Old February 18, 2013, 07:14 PM   #22
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While those bullets look like they did the job, Snuffy's GMX bullets expanded well also, but there could be a significant difference in velocity between the two rifles. I think I'm going to try both and see if precision and accuracy are there for me.
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Old February 19, 2013, 10:39 AM   #23
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The chief difference is the bullets I showed came out of an animal, not shot into water.

Here's a picture of the hog.
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Old February 20, 2013, 01:01 AM   #24
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Ok we had a day at the range,it was cold and wet.He first shot a few useing the 180gn smk,and found a load for that bullet.Next we moved on to the 180gn E-tip.The first five had 42gn of 4064 and the Over all length came in at 2.970.( .005 of the lands ) Have to say this load gave the best accuracy,the 3 shot group came in at just over 3/4" at 100 yards.Now my guess load with R17 ( 46gn ) same over all length did not give any kind of accuracy at all.Even getting 50 or so more fps with the R17 just didn't work,I would have bet the extra fps would have done the best.Just goes to show you cannot win them all.( at guessing ) So the next time out we'll try a lot of five with the same load,just to see if the load opens up any at all.

I'll even add that I did not clean the bore any,and I know that he had around 60 plus rounds down the bore from the last time out.So I will go on to say that the E-tip from what little I still know about them,somewhat does not need to have a clean bore to be shot accurately.As of today his rifle now has a round count of 150 down the bore.BUT I did run two wet patcks down the bore today to clean it up a little for the next time out.

I'll post again when I know more.
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