9mm black talons?

Rebel9793 · February 10, 2013, 08:54 PM

was looking through the safe today seeing what ammo my Father has and I stumbled upon a brand new box of 9mm black talons. The box has never been open. Are they still illegal? Lookin for someone to bring me up to speed on them if somene does not mind.

2ndsojourn · February 10, 2013, 09:08 PM

Depending on the law in your particular state, it may be illegal to use. In NJ, hollow point ammo is illegal.

Check this wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

Rebel9793 · February 10, 2013, 09:35 PM

I live in florida and so far I cannot find anything

laytonj1 · February 10, 2013, 09:47 PM

They were never banned or illegal.

Jim

jmwyles · February 10, 2013, 09:47 PM

Federal law does nor prohibit possesion or use of Black Talon ammo. However, be aware of any state or local laws that may make them illegal. I have a full unopened case of them. They are the same as the Winchester T series now minus the black coating. The black coating was Lubalox which simply prevented the copper bullet from fouling the riflings in the barrel.

**James K** · February 10, 2013, 10:16 PM

A case of the manufacturer using the wrong word, "black". The result was insanity, like claims that thousands of surgeons died from AIDS when bullet fragments cut their latex gloves and skin. Oddly that didn't happen when police fired Black Talons, only when civilians used them, or when other brands of expanding bullets were used in all those hundreds of millions of shootings every week in the U.S.

No problems with Remington's Golden Sabre, of course because they weren't the wrong color.

Jim

wolfgaurd · February 11, 2013, 05:53 AM

i have a full box of each 9mm and 45acp. i dont plan on using them just keep them in the safe. i remember when they couldnt make them anymore and the boxes that were for sale went pretty high.

rep1954 · February 11, 2013, 06:05 AM

Never at any time was Winchester not allowed to make Black Talons. Winchester dropped the name and the evil black colored coating on their own. I still have some in 45acp.

**Mike Irwin** · February 11, 2013, 08:34 AM

I was with American Rifleman when the Black Talon was first announced. Some time later I was talking with a Winchester PR wonk when we started talking about the Black Talon, and I mentioned that I thought the name was going to be an issue for them.

I was more or less poo poohed, but a couple of months later the spit started to hit the spam with the bad publicity.

Winchester eventually voluntarily withdrew the rounds from the market.

carguychris · February 11, 2013, 08:47 AM

Just for the record, let me address a few common misconceptions that haven't been specifically discussed...

Black Talons are NOT intended to be armor piercing, and they do NOT pierce body armor significantly better than any other commonplace hollow-point self-defense round.

As jmwyles correctly states, the black coating is Lubalox; it is NOT Teflon.

Legal regulations re: the sale of armor-piercing pistol ammunition WERE passed in the aftermath of the Black Talon controversy, but the legislative language was watered down from what the gun control factions wanted, and the regulations do NOT address Black Talon-type ammo.

The Black Talon controversy is better characterized as a historic example of a marketing campaign gone wrong- the gun equivalent of the Infiniti "Rocks & Trees" or the Cadillac Catera dancing cartoon duck.

SgtLumpy · February 12, 2013, 11:50 PM

I want hollow points with the brand name -
"Mother Theresa Peace Cartridges"
or
"Green Cross Target Safe Bullets"

Those are a lot more litigation friendly than "Extreme Terminal Performance" or "Black Talon" or even "Bear Arms" trade names.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

larryf1952 · February 13, 2013, 01:37 PM

In addition to Winchester's choice of an "evil" sounding name for their new bullet, the Black Talon's doom was also shortly sealed by the maniac who chose to shoot up the Long Island commuter train with a 9mm Ruger P89, loaded with Black Talons. It didn't take long after that. As they say, timing is everything.

Constantine · February 13, 2013, 02:18 PM

I'll buy em off you. $50 bucks. PM me if you wanna sell them.

jolly roger · February 13, 2013, 05:30 PM

I still have 4 unopened 20 round boxes of 9mm and 4 20 round boxes of 45ACP Black Talon evil zombie rounds in my stash just for the pure h*** of it

chris in va · February 13, 2013, 07:33 PM

Very interesting video. Can't say as I've seen a more wicked looking petal formation.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516189

tonelar · February 22, 2013, 02:44 PM

Black Talons have replaced Hydroshocks and Silvertips in the "popular obsolete defensive ammo" world.

Three points;

1. When Winchester stopped making them, their SXT line was manufactured to perform pretty much identically to the discontinued Talons.

2. Ranger T ammo is actually an improvement over SXT.

3. Legislation was not passed to ban Black Talons. What was made illegal all over the place was the old KTW round (years before the Talons were made).

Gaerek · February 22, 2013, 03:31 PM

The KTW's weren't banned because they were hollowpoints either. They were banned because they were armor piercing. And I don't think they were banned by name either, just by the blanket armor piercing ban. However, the media frenzy over KTW "cop killer" bullets was the catalyst for the banning of armor piercing rounds.

drail · February 22, 2013, 06:37 PM

I knew quite a few cops back then and they all referred to them as "Black Felons". Once that started the race card came out and Winchester dropped them (under the "Black Talon" name). The design made a lot of other companies rethink how to make a hollowpoint bullet that would expand reliably without requiring very high velocities. It is a very good bullet but many other brands also offer similar designs that will open at handgun velocities. The name was probably a bad idea.

barnbwt · February 23, 2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

I mentioned that I thought the name was going to be an issue for them.

I guess it was just menacing enough to be taken scarily, but not ridiculous enough (Zombiemax or Hydroshok, anyone?) to seem comical. They should have used a bright green coating

. It's funny how colors have an effect on people who don't use their brains--anyone notice how many police officers dress in all-black these days..?

FWIW, Talons are pretty outdated as far as design, but were one of the early successes at modern-style jacketed hollow points. More interesting as a historical footnote of gun politics and ammo design than as a duty round.

TCB

Zilmo · March 3, 2013, 01:50 AM

I have a bunch of boxes in different calibers that I collected over the years. Never have shot any of them.

Rainbow Demon · March 3, 2013, 02:01 AM

I used to use SuperVel 9mm truncated cone hollow points with my P-35.
Awhile back I heard they no longer sold the SuperVel except to police departments.

Do they even still make the SuperVel?

From the simple test firings I did I can't imagine a more deadly 9mm bullet.

armsmaster270 · March 3, 2013, 06:29 AM

I carried Supervels in .38 & .357 in my duty weapon and backup. Loved them.

WC145 · March 3, 2013, 07:24 AM

Supervel has been gone for years, maybe decades. It was hot stuff back in the day.

BoogieMan · March 3, 2013, 09:33 AM

@2ndsojourn

Quote:

Depending on the law in your particular state, it may be illegal to use. In NJ, hollow point ammo is illegal.

Thats a common misconception. It is not ilegal to buy or shoot HP's in NJ. Link to NJSP http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html
It is ilegal to use a HP for a ilegal purpose. If a BG was to rob a store with HP's in the gun than he would be guilty of an additional charge.

2ndsojourn · March 3, 2013, 11:33 AM

BoogieMan, yeah, you're right. Not totally illegal, but only legal for firing range and hunting. I couldn't even find an exception for HD use. If you can find it, let me know.

February 10, 2013, 08:54 PM	#1
Rebel9793 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 121	9mm black talons? was looking through the safe today seeing what ammo my Father has and I stumbled upon a brand new box of 9mm black talons. The box has never been open. Are they still illegal? Lookin for someone to bring me up to speed on them if somene does not mind.

February 10, 2013, 09:47 PM	#4
laytonj1 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 3,298	They were never banned or illegal. Jim Last edited by laytonj1; February 10, 2013 at 09:57 PM.

February 10, 2013, 09:47 PM	#5
jmwyles Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2007 Posts: 9	Federal law does nor prohibit possesion or use of Black Talon ammo. However, be aware of any state or local laws that may make them illegal. I have a full unopened case of them. They are the same as the Winchester T series now minus the black coating. The black coating was Lubalox which simply prevented the copper bullet from fouling the riflings in the barrel. __________________ You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the rich out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

February 10, 2013, 10:16 PM	#6
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,414	A case of the manufacturer using the wrong word, "black". The result was insanity, like claims that thousands of surgeons died from AIDS when bullet fragments cut their latex gloves and skin. Oddly that didn't happen when police fired Black Talons, only when civilians used them, or when other brands of expanding bullets were used in all those hundreds of millions of shootings every week in the U.S. No problems with Remington's Golden Sabre, of course because they weren't the wrong color. Jim __________________ Jim K

February 11, 2013, 08:34 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,115	I was with American Rifleman when the Black Talon was first announced. Some time later I was talking with a Winchester PR wonk when we started talking about the Black Talon, and I mentioned that I thought the name was going to be an issue for them. I was more or less poo poohed, but a couple of months later the spit started to hit the spam with the bad publicity. Winchester eventually voluntarily withdrew the rounds from the market. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 10, 2013, 09:08 PM	#2
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 365	Depending on the law in your particular state, it may be illegal to use. In NJ, hollow point ammo is illegal. Check this wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

February 10, 2013, 09:35 PM	#3
Rebel9793 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 121	I live in florida and so far I cannot find anything

February 11, 2013, 05:53 AM	#7
wolfgaurd Junior Member Join Date: January 28, 2013 Location: va. Posts: 9	i have a full box of each 9mm and 45acp. i dont plan on using them just keep them in the safe. i remember when they couldnt make them anymore and the boxes that were for sale went pretty high.

February 11, 2013, 06:05 AM	#8
rep1954 Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Location: Mid Western Michigan Posts: 683	Never at any time was Winchester not allowed to make Black Talons. Winchester dropped the name and the evil black colored coating on their own. I still have some in 45acp.

February 11, 2013, 08:47 AM	#10
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 4,628	Just for the record, let me address a few common misconceptions that haven't been specifically discussed... Black Talons are NOT intended to be armor piercing, and they do NOT pierce body armor significantly better than any other commonplace hollow-point self-defense round. As jmwyles correctly states, the black coating is Lubalox; it is NOT Teflon. Legal regulations re: the sale of armor-piercing pistol ammunition WERE passed in the aftermath of the Black Talon controversy, but the legislative language was watered down from what the gun control factions wanted, and the regulations do NOT address Black Talon-type ammo. The Black Talon controversy is better characterized as a historic example of a marketing campaign gone wrong- the gun equivalent of the Infiniti "Rocks & Trees" or the Cadillac Catera dancing cartoon duck. __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

February 12, 2013, 11:50 PM	#11
SgtLumpy Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Posts: 151	I want hollow points with the brand name - "Mother Theresa Peace Cartridges" or "Green Cross Target Safe Bullets" Those are a lot more litigation friendly than "Extreme Terminal Performance" or "Black Talon" or even "Bear Arms" trade names. Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

February 13, 2013, 01:37 PM	#12
larryf1952 Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2004 Location: KCMO Posts: 433	In addition to Winchester's choice of an "evil" sounding name for their new bullet, the Black Talon's doom was also shortly sealed by the maniac who chose to shoot up the Long Island commuter train with a 9mm Ruger P89, loaded with Black Talons. It didn't take long after that. As they say, timing is everything.

February 13, 2013, 02:18 PM	#13
Constantine Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 4,039	I'll buy em off you. $50 bucks. PM me if you wanna sell them. __________________ Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen

February 13, 2013, 05:30 PM	#14
jolly roger Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 91	I still have 4 unopened 20 round boxes of 9mm and 4 20 round boxes of 45ACP Black Talon evil zombie rounds in my stash just for the pure h*** of it

February 13, 2013, 07:33 PM	#15
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 11,718	Very interesting video. Can't say as I've seen a more wicked looking petal formation. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516189

February 22, 2013, 02:44 PM	#16
tonelar Member Join Date: December 29, 2007 Location: Cali Posts: 22	Black Talons have replaced Hydroshocks and Silvertips in the "popular obsolete defensive ammo" world. Three points; 1. When Winchester stopped making them, their SXT line was manufactured to perform pretty much identically to the discontinued Talons. 2. Ranger T ammo is actually an improvement over SXT. 3. Legislation was not passed to ban Black Talons. What was made illegal all over the place was the old KTW round (years before the Talons were made).

February 22, 2013, 03:31 PM	#17
Gaerek Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 825	The KTW's weren't banned because they were hollowpoints either. They were banned because they were armor piercing. And I don't think they were banned by name either, just by the blanket armor piercing ban. However, the media frenzy over KTW "cop killer" bullets was the catalyst for the banning of armor piercing rounds.

February 22, 2013, 06:37 PM	#18
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	I knew quite a few cops back then and they all referred to them as "Black Felons". Once that started the race card came out and Winchester dropped them (under the "Black Talon" name). The design made a lot of other companies rethink how to make a hollowpoint bullet that would expand reliably without requiring very high velocities. It is a very good bullet but many other brands also offer similar designs that will open at handgun velocities. The name was probably a bad idea.

March 3, 2013, 01:50 AM	#20
Zilmo Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2009 Location: At home. Posts: 369	I have a bunch of boxes in different calibers that I collected over the years. Never have shot any of them.

March 3, 2013, 02:01 AM	#21
Rainbow Demon Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2012 Posts: 397	I used to use SuperVel 9mm truncated cone hollow points with my P-35. Awhile back I heard they no longer sold the SuperVel except to police departments. Do they even still make the SuperVel? From the simple test firings I did I can't imagine a more deadly 9mm bullet.

March 3, 2013, 06:29 AM	#22
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,750	I carried Supervels in .38 & .357 in my duty weapon and backup. Loved them. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

March 3, 2013, 07:24 AM	#23
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,292	Supervel has been gone for years, maybe decades. It was hot stuff back in the day. __________________ If you're going to be dumb you'd better be tough. Stupid hurts.

March 3, 2013, 11:33 AM	#25
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 365	BoogieMan, yeah, you're right. Not totally illegal, but only legal for firing range and hunting. I couldn't even find an exception for HD use. If you can find it, let me know.