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Old February 5, 2013, 07:10 AM   #26
ROCK6
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I would agree that gun shows are not the problem.

Why can't they institute a simple fee (most sheriff's offices will run a background check for free but $2-$5 wouldn't be unreasonable) to run a back-ground check for individuals who want to buy? Get a dated receipt (have it good for 90 days or whatever) and signed/stamped by a local LEO or court-house; and then allow buyers to show that for any private, local purchase for the deal.

Some dealers charge outrageous fees for transfers but what’s to say fees can’t be forced upward of $100 or a large percent of the sale? Most agree $15-25 is reasonable, but that could be regulated to point of forcing sales back in the alleys. I have my local dealer do many transactions for me, but that is because they are shipped from out-of-state and his fees are reasonable. And vice-versa, I ship only to FFL dealers when I sell out of state. It’s always been “buyer-beware” and should remain that way. I would never purposely sell a firearm to a criminal, but if a local buyer showed a receipt where they ran a background check on themselves it would give me peace-of-mind.

Of course, that doesn't meet the need to track the gun, record addresses or document the transaction. That's the sticking point...it gives up control. NICS could be instituted the same way, just available for private citizens to ensure they are selling to someone who shouldn't have one. Does it stop straw-purchases? Nope, but that's already illegal for the purchaser and is what should be prosecuted as severely as any criminal owning or using a firearm in the act of a crime.

I just get sick of all the attention on the firearm (or accessories) and the complete lack of focus on the criminal or those that knowingly facilitate criminal activity.

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Old February 5, 2013, 09:09 AM   #27
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Why should I have to pay anything to anyone to purchase private property from a private citizen?
Do we also make used car buyers get a license check and pay a fee for it before allowing them to buy a car from their next door neighbor?
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Old February 5, 2013, 10:55 AM   #28
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The only people that would go to a Gun Show are obviously potential criminals. We need to assume anyone that wants to buy a gun without government consent wants to hide what they are doing!
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Old February 5, 2013, 12:34 PM   #29
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Do we also make used car buyers get a license check and pay a fee for it before allowing them to buy a car from their next door neighbor?
That varies from state to state, but you've got to transfer the title, which is a form of registration.
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Old February 5, 2013, 12:59 PM   #30
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That varies from state to state, but you've got to transfer the title, which is a form of registration.
Very true. But that occurs after the fact. Not before.
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Old February 5, 2013, 02:58 PM   #31
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Madcap_Magician ... yes, while it is possible guys like this are skating on the edge, proving it is another matter.

Do you have any idea how many firearms a "serious" collector might accumulate in a 40+ year period? Selling off some portion or all of a collection might well be several 100s of firearms, some duplicates.

Over the years, I've purchased firearms at gun shows from dealers, always with a #4473 and a NICS check. Non-dealers, with as few a couple firearms to a couple dozen or more. I have to taken them at their word that it's their private arms being sold. I've also seen them at multiple shows over a number of years ... as well as a BATFE presence and have not seen the Feds giving them grief. Either they're too lazy to do their job or they're satisified.
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Old February 5, 2013, 07:12 PM   #32
hermannr
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I am also a person that does not frequent gun shows, but I make a habit of understadning the law in my state (WA) and neighboring states I may be in.

In OR, there is no "gun show loophole" The state legislature closed that years ago. However, private sales, between private parties are unregulated.

There is a section in the law that you "MAY" follow, that will allow a private person doing a private sale (not a a gun show) that allows for the private person to have a BGC done on the purchaser, and the purchaser "MAY" do a stolen items check on the weapon. These are not required, but they are available.

Here in WA, if the gun show allows (some here do not) a private person can sell at a gun show, or privately, without license, BGC, or stolen weapons check. As I have stated, some of the gun show sponsers will not allow private individuals to sell firearms at their shows, but it is not state law. WA also has a "report of sale" available for private transactions, if the seller wishes to use this, but the state's real interest is in collecting their sales/use tax, not regulating or registering weapons.
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Old February 5, 2013, 08:06 PM   #33
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I have worked the door at a local gun show, and at those in order to sell a firearm from your table you must have an FFL, just the show rules, we asked people who came in as customers if they were carrying a concealed firearm and if so they had the choice of unloading and allowing us to safe it, usually by installation of a zip tie so it would not function, or return it to their vehicle, again it was the show rules, we put a sticker on guns they wanted to sell/trade and zip tied them also, vendors were required to put a different color sticker on one being sold, no names or serial #'s were taken. We tried to provide a minimum of security and in reality it was the vendors responsibility to keep an eye on their stock. Others I have been to the "paperwork" consisted of me handing them money and them handing me the firearm, I have also filled out many 4473's at gun shows. If a FFL dealer has a particular firearm listed as part of his inventory then it requires a 4473, if it is his personally owned firearm then he can transfer it just like we are in his house. There has been a few semi-local gun shops that were raided for carrying the majority of their firearms as "personal property" and not FFL inventory. At least that was the best explanation I could get from them. As for private sales I know of no way they could do anything more than provide a wild guess as to how many are bought & sold privately. Since there is no paperwork there is no way to know, sort of like guessing how many loads of firewood are sold, so any number given for private sales would be iffy at best.
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Old February 6, 2013, 08:57 AM   #34
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
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Private Sale at Gun Show

Is it frowned upon to go into the actual gun show with a firearm and a For Sale sign in a state where it is unregulated (WI)? Should that person stay outside near the door?
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Old February 6, 2013, 09:04 AM   #35
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I've seen many person walking around gun shows in Texas with a for sale sign on a rifle slung on his shoulder. No one bats an eye.
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Old February 6, 2013, 09:18 AM   #36
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They do the same thing in Arkansas. For long guns, some guys will even create a small sign like a flag that has the kind of gun and the price. Put the stick that holds the flag down the barrel, and everyone can see what it is and what you're asking without having to bother the seller.
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Old February 6, 2013, 09:20 AM   #37
terzmo
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Cuomo's "safe act" common sense law is duplication of effort for pistol permit holders in NY. We already have been schooled,fingerprinted,pictured,logged and had an extensive background check. Why would another background check be required? (the guns and permit are confiscated if arrested for DWI,serious misdemeanor or felony,that's if "arrested,not after being convicted)

And more common sense with the "7" rule. 7 rounds in an 8 round revolver but..A person can load 7 into a mag,cycle the action,drop the mag and insert another #7...and viola...8 rounds.
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Old February 6, 2013, 11:02 AM   #38
Glenn E. Meyer
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There was a guy around here in San Antonio, who consistently had two rifles and a few pistols in his belt and the sign in the rifles. Haven't seen him for a bit and I vaguely recall he was spoken to.
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Old February 6, 2013, 11:24 AM   #39
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Just based on my experience... anybody walking around a gunshow with one on their shoulder is selling it. The one time I bought a gun at a gunshow, I had the seller stick it under the table so I could pick it up on my way out the door so I didn't have to carry it around.. I'm assuming I'm like everybody else, and I can't see why anybody would want to hump a 26" double-barrel around on their shoulder for 3 hours while they did the rest of their shopping.

Of course this is a moot point in states with waiting periods, but in the normal states, I think it's 99% safe to assume a guy with a gun on his shoulder is selling it.

And while I understand there's a certain amount of "etiquette" involved, I often see dealers buy guns off guys carrying them around in the crowd... business is business.
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Old February 6, 2013, 11:59 AM   #40
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Quote:
Is it frowned upon to go into the actual gun show with a firearm and a For Sale sign in a state where it is unregulated (WI)? Should that person stay outside near the door?
My opinion is that it's fine to conduct private sales on the show floor as long as you don't:

1) Interrupt a conversation between a buyer and a dealer to try to sell the buyer *your* gun instead.

2) If another private seller is trying to sell a gun to a dealer, don't jump in with an offer on the gun until the dealer has declined and turned the seller away.
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Old February 6, 2013, 02:08 PM   #41
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I scored a Winchester 1895 Russian Contract musket just that way. I spied this rifle front end sticking out of the crowd ... walking around. Talked to the guy, inspected the rifle, pulled out my money and it was mine!
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Old February 8, 2013, 05:46 PM   #42
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Dealers are required to perform background checks at gun shows, but private citizens are not. The majority of sales are through dealers. You will hear the left say that 40% of guns are aquired without a background check but the truth is the vast majority of this 40% are passed down in families or sold to friends. In a study of over 14000 convicted violent criminals only 1% of them aquired guns this way, so it isnt the problem the left would have us believe.

Do you really think that there should be government involvement for a private transaction between two private citizens, i sure dont! Do you perform a background check before selling someone a car, truck, motorcycle, etc...to see if they have any tickets or drunk driving convictions, the answer is no so why should the government poke their nose into a firearm sale? Background checks are backdoor registration, and for those who say that they havent done it yet, or wont..... dont be naive! The left has a goal to disarm the american public. Dont let this happen!
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Old February 10, 2013, 10:16 PM   #43
Willie Sutton
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Is it frowned upon to go into the actual gun show with a firearm and a For Sale sign in a state where it is unregulated (WI)? Should that person stay outside near the door?


I guess it depends on the show, but guys walking around with a pencil dropped down the bore of a rifle or shotgun with a flag-sign on it made out of a couple of index cards with "for sale" on it has been a fixture at every gunshow I have ever attended. It's to invite conversations from both tables and pedestrians. Just part of the fun. Standing outside hawking guns is less likely to be taken with a smile... pay your entry fee and walk around inside.


My opinion is that it's fine to conduct private sales on the show floor as long as you don't:
1) Interrupt a conversation between a buyer and a dealer to try to sell the buyer *your* gun instead.
2) If another private seller is trying to sell a gun to a dealer, don't jump in with an offer on the gun until the dealer has declined and turned the seller away.



Absolutely. There is a well developed sense of fair play involved by people who are serious collectors. Like waiting for the guy ahead of you to put back onto the table the gun that you are DYING to snap up before jumping into the conversation. If he was there first... let him look at it quietly while he decides. It's his until he places it back down. After that it's fair game.




Willie

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Old February 11, 2013, 10:48 AM   #44
Glenn E. Meyer
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Once again - I will remind folks that we don't do : left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative.

Get that in your heads. We can come up with lists of both sides who are pro and antigun. That's the distinction we use.

Deleted some of that.
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Old February 11, 2013, 02:59 PM   #45
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As I recall, the first time I heard the term "gun show loophole" bandied about was after some of the Columbine shooters' weapons were found to have come from a gun show. What was conveniently ignored was that they were purchased at the gun show through an illegal straw purchaser and thus "closing the gun show loophole" would not have prevented them from acquiring the guns.

As has been mentioned, federal law applies whether one is buying a gun in a brick and mortar store, online, or at a gun show: any gun bought from an FFL holder is subject to a NICS check and guns bought from private individuals are not. When the anti's bemoan the gun show loophole, what they really mean is that they want their tentacles in private transactions. If anything can be accurately characterized as a "gun show loophole," it's the poorly-written law that fails to clearly define the difference between occasional private sales and engaging in the business of selling firearms.
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