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Old January 30, 2013, 09:15 PM   #26
Jimro
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Slamfire,

The diagrams you shared show elasticity and spring back. Spring back works both ways, on firing it springs back inward, and on resizing it springs back outward. When the elasticity strength is exceeded without exceeding the tensile strength of the brass, you see a permanent expansion. If there is a permanent expansion you need to size the brass beyond minimum size and let outward springback compensate to make ammunition in the proper dimensions.

I get how metal works, I get how reloading dies work. However, your argument boils down to "there might be some brass out there that was so abused that the FL die just won't cut it." You cannot make that assumption without knowing the dimensions of the chamber on the OPs rifle and the dimensions of the FL die.

I've resized 5.56 brass that was fired through a M249 SAWs and 7.62 brass fired through M240 machine guns and so far even that brass has functioned very well, even in a Wylde chamber on a White Oak upper and a minimum head space Savage 10. In my experience, with a variety of ARs, a 308 Saiga and various bolt action 308 rifles, that a full length resizing die will make ammunition that feeds reliably.

I readily admit that there are rifles out that that will need Small Base dies. But until the JRLSH tries out the die he has, we will not know if his AR is one of them. If his isn't, then there is no point in buying a small base die unless he wants to feed his ammo into a rifle that DOES need a small base die.

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Old January 31, 2013, 01:42 AM   #27
F. Guffey
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post #17, 23, 24 .....great info thanks, as "they" answered the question on whether you should use a small base for you AR platform or semi auto.

Matt.

Talking about "conventional wisdom" that isn't: Insinuating that all folks who happen to have AR's that don't feed conventional FL sized reloads well are stupid and can't set sizer dies correctly is flat uncalled for. Once you set the die to cam-over as per most instruction sheets....which is about as hard as buttering bread, tell me, what magic do you have to make bases smaller, so they will chamber without a hammer.

I had one guy on another forum say to grind off your shell plate a little. That's a great idea....then you can bump the shoulder back even further, when a conventional sizer, cammed over, usually bumps it back too much already. Your gauges say you're bumping too much? ...get a small-base and back it out a hair.

Then there's the magazine writer "gurus" who insist small-based sizers work the brass too much. Think a .001 or .002" squeeze at the base is worse than bumping the shoulder back .005" when its not necessary? Sure it is. Besides, the havoc the AR action does to brass will make it unusable long before squeezing the base will.

If I am not given the luxury luxury of disagreeing? I will take it. The small base die does not size the base of the case, again and again! The shell holder has a deck height, the deck height on my shell holders is .125”, the shell holder prevents the die from reaching the head of the case. Meaning the base of the case is not sized, that leaves the rest of the case above .125. Added to the .125 is the radius at the opening of the die. Then there is the not knowing, not knowing WHAT! The reloader should know/ be able to understand the dimensions of the case, the reloader should understand minimum length, full length sized, go-gage length etc., etc..

Then there is: “get a small-base and back it out a hair” sure, purchase another die, I suggest learning to use the die he has before spending money on something he may not need. I just received feed back on a rifle, I delivered it with a new box of Remington ammo, rather than assume anyone understands why I will explain, the new ammo was minimum length, not shorter, not longer, the new ammo was equal in length to full length sized. Point? If in the future reloaded ammo will not chamber I will instruct the proud owner to to learn to operate a press or quit reloading.

What ever rifle is being discussed on this thread has had new/factory ammo fired in it, the new/factory ammo chambered and fired, What happened? When the case snapped back, jumped back or recovered did it stick to the chamber and snap it back also? How did the chamber get smaller.

Then there is the: “usually bumps it back too much already”. With the bragging you are heaping on post numbers 17, 23 and 24 and the wonders of the small base die???? I have to ask, if grinding the shell holder increases the ability of the die to shorten the case from the head of the case to its shoulder, why would he need a small base die? Rational, the case has tapered sides, the case is round, a round case with tapered sides is a cone, shorten the cone the varying diameters of the case are reduced when compared with the chamber, just an opinion but I am wondering if the small base die’s function is understood. I size/form cases for short chambers, if the ‘minimum length/full length sized’ concept was understood the reloader could size cases for short chambers, when forming cases for short chambers I have 12 options between minimum length (.000) and a –.012” short chamber, meaning the chamber is .012” shorter than a minimum length case. Meaning if the case was fired in a go-gage length chamber the difference in length between the case and chamber would be .013”, in my opinion that is too much case travel, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

It is never necessary to grind the bottom of the die, it is never necessary to grind the top of the shell holder. Redding competition shell holders are never necessary , nice but not necessary. Think about it, $40.00 to replace $6.00 shell holders. 5 sets of 4 shell holders @ $40.00 X 5 shell holders sets = $200.00, then there will be the argument, a reloader only needs one set when sizing cases for the chamber that needs the use of the Redding shell holder, again, the reloader needs to become more proficient with the press, die and shell holder set-up.

Then there is that part about full length sizing to minimum length without a clue or a way to determine if the case was full length sized to minimum length before lowering the ram, it is possible the case whipped the press, or if the press whipped the case. Knowing if my press sized the case before lowering the ram is saves me time in effort, knowing the case will chamber before I lower the ram if a technique I believe a reloader should master before ordering a small base die. Then there is full length sizing, if the reloader knew the length of the chamber they could make a determination, is full length sizing necessary?

I have small base dies, again, I have RCBS BAR dies, my favorite die is the forming/trim die.

F. Guffey
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Old January 31, 2013, 01:53 AM   #28
F. Guffey
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I readily admit that there are rifles out that that will need Small Base dies.

JIMRO, I agree, the question is when did the chamber require a small base die, the owner/shooter started with new ammo, too bad he did not save a few rounds for a reference for comparison. I have RCBS BAR dies, straight away from the beginning it was understood the BAR chambers did not have clearance cut into the chamber (like the M1 Garand). I have RCBS dies that are not small base, when comparing sized case from the BAR dies and standard dies it is not easy to measure the difference.

F. Guffey
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Old January 31, 2013, 03:37 AM   #29
hammered54
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F.Guffey

it was good info, and answered what I was looking for ....I also enjoy reading your responses they also have information that I can put to use...reloading for me is not a hobby its just something I do...but I try to do it well.

Matt.
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Old February 2, 2013, 09:58 PM   #30
Slamfire
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Quote:
I readily admit that there are rifles out that that will need Small Base dies. But until the JRLSH tries out the die he has, we will not know if his AR is one of them. If his isn't, then there is no point in buying a small base die unless he wants to feed his ammo into a rifle that DOES need a small base die.
I am of the opinion that factory dimensions are the best dimensions for function in gas guns. A lot of money was spent analyzing the “best” tolerances and clearances for maximum function reliability. So why go larger? Why is larger better than factory?
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Old February 3, 2013, 11:05 AM   #31
CrustyFN
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Quote:
I am of the opinion that factory dimensions are the best dimensions for function in gas guns. A lot of money was spent analyzing the “best” tolerances and clearances for maximum function reliability. So why go larger? Why is larger better than factory?
I don't think anybody is saying larger is better. What we are saying is why waste money on a small base die if the normal die works fine. The OP won't know until he tries. You also say that he will have a problem once he starts using range pickup cases. I'm curious why that is. All the 223 brass I have is range pickup. I have never bought new brass or factory 223 ammo. The hardest I have shot my AR is at a rattle battle match at the club I belong to. The rattle battle is a match where you shoot as many rounds as you can in 60 seconds prone, then as many in 60 seconds kneeling and then as many in 60 seconds standing. I use 30 round mags and will usually do a mag change in that 60 seconds. I have never had a feed or extraction issue shooting one of those matches. Is that hard enough to make a standard die fail to where you would need a small base die and if so then why is my Lee FL sizer working just fine.
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Old February 3, 2013, 12:13 PM   #32
Slamfire
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Quote:
I don't think anybody is saying larger is better.
But you are saying that. Lets not walk away from that.

The original factory dimensions are to provide clearance of the case during extraction. There are a lot of factors that work into that, brass hardness changes as the brass is work hardened. If that diagram I posted is to be trusted the harder the brass, the more of an interference fit you get.


Quote:
What we are saying is why waste money on a small base die if the normal die works fine.
I don't have the means to measure taper, and I will bet you don't either. You are probably just shooting and it goes bang, fine. I paid Compass Lake to cut me reamer cut cartridge headspace gages. These are gages cut with the exact same reamer that is used in cutting my rifle chamber. After sizing with standard based dies I found the occasional "sticky" case. Not much, just took light finger pressure to seat, but there it was. An interference fit.

People get away with these light interference fits as the bolt crush fits cases to the chamber. They are also getting away with it during extraction as the extractor is able to drag most cases out of the chamber.

The occasional malfunction is just chalked up to “bad luck”.

I just read in Rifle magazine that manufacturer's are using larger chamber reamers. This is an endless cycle to the bottom, neck sizing, partial neck sizing, standard dies cause malfunctions, shooters complain, it is never their fault, so the manufacturers' make larger chamber reamers.

We know that standard base dies leave cases larger, and I have not heard of a good reason why larger is better.

So why is larger better?
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Old February 3, 2013, 12:32 PM   #33
JMP
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I had just the FL dies and used them on once fired brass. Probably an average of three out of every magazine wouldn't chamber so I bought a SB sizing die and it fixed the chambering problem. Same thing happened in my LAR308 but I got two reloads out of the brass before it wouldn't chamber.

If I had it to do over again, I would still do it the same way - use what I already have until it doesn't work then buy the SB, unless you're using it in competition then you really can't take that chance.

Does anybody know if I can run loaded rounds through the SB die so I don't have to pull the ones that won't chamber?
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Old February 3, 2013, 12:37 PM   #34
Slamfire
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Does anybody know if I can run loaded rounds through the SB die so I don't have to pull the ones that won't chamber?
I think you are hosed. Even if you took the spindle out, dies severely reduce case necks, and yours have bullets in them.

Once you get the bullet out, you can size with the firing pin spindle set high enough that you don't knock out the primers.
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Old February 3, 2013, 02:10 PM   #35
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But you are saying that. Lets not walk away from that.
No where in my post did I say larger is better. I said if it works why change. Looks like you don't want to read other posts you just want to argue. I'm done here.
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Old February 3, 2013, 02:28 PM   #36
Slamfire
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Quote:
Quote:
But you are saying that. Lets not walk away from that.
No where in my post did I say larger is better. I said if it works why change. Looks like you don't want to read other posts you just want to argue. I'm done here.
By advocating the use of standard sizing dies , whether you state it explicitly or not, your practice leaves brass larger.

You cannot come up with rationale why larger cases are better, other than it works for you.

That's OK. Do what works for you.
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Old February 3, 2013, 02:40 PM   #37
hunter52
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FWIW, I have been loading .223 since 77, for a Remington 700 BDL, and later a Contender with a Bullberry carbine barrel using FL dies and full length sizing.
Bought a Bushmaster in 2000 for $500, the only ammunition I had was what I had reloaded for the other rifles, they were tight chambering, shot OK, but then I got one stuck in the chamber.
Bought a SB sizer , no more hard chambering ,stuck cartridges, brass lasts as long as brass shot from the other rifles.
I use the SB sized cartridges in the TC now too. But not for the Remington
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