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Old January 31, 2013, 03:53 PM   #26
tulsamal
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Most "inaccuracy" in handguns is generated by the shooter.
I'm not going to argue with that!

But... IMO... when it comes to 1911's, it does make a difference how you define "stock." Somebody earlier listed a Wilson. Guns like that have almost nothing in common with standard mass produced 1911's. If you are going to stick to a GI or milspec type of gun, then lots of centerfire autos can outshoot them. (And I'm talking about in a Ransom Rest.)

Can the 1911 design be "tuned" by people who know what they are doing? Can they use extremely high quality parts when they put them together? Sure. The 1911 design benefits from over a century of gunsmith expertise. We've had a long time and lots of practice making them shoot well.

But I don't think any old school gunsmith would argue that the design has built in limitations. If you were going to start out with a clean sheet of paper to design a centerfire auto and accuracy was your primary objective, you wouldn't use the 1911 design as your foundation.

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Old January 31, 2013, 03:59 PM   #27
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Most accurate pistol? Maybe the Mosin Nagant Obrez Pistol (not the revolver)
7.62x54r Bolt action, scoped.

One of the main problems with pistols and accuracy is that the bullets generally suck for accurate fire. Low velocity+ big bore = bad trajectory and more prone to wind influence and that's on top of having bad Ballistic Coefficients, which further exacerbates the poor trajectory and wind influence problems.

The .44 magnum is touted as accurate at 4-5 inches at 50yrds. Pistol accuracy is largely dependent on the shooter. Your heartbeat could make the sights quiver enough to throw a 50yrd shot off by more than half a foot because the weapon is so short.
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Old January 31, 2013, 04:05 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tulsamal
The 1911 barrel floats all over the place. If you put a tight target bushing on it and make the rear lockup super tight, then you lose reliability. Then there is slide fit. A custom gunsmith that takes a lot of extra time and effort can make them shoot like target guns but your basic stock 1911 isn't all that accurate. Actually when I was growing up, lots of oldtimers would claim you couldn't hit a barn with one. From inside the barn.
Many manufacturers of 1911 variants today provide tighter tolerances while keeping reliability on their everyday models. If anyone, including oldimers, can't hit a barn standing from the inside with even the older military designated 1911s, then I'm asserting it's the shooter, not the firearm.

There's a reason why 1911s off all variants are being used in competition. There's a reason why other platforms are being used as well. The Sig P210, CZ variants, etc., deserves credit where credit is due.

Which firearm is the most accurate? Here's my answer: There ISN'T ONE. Today's quality in building firearms along with higher quality made cartridges have narrowed the grouping size on targets so much that there just isn't a definitive, undisputed answer.
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Old January 31, 2013, 04:16 PM   #29
tulsamal
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If anyone, including oldimers, can't hit a barn standing from the inside with even the older military designated 1911s, then I'm asserting it's the shooter, not the firearm.
I wasn't trying to present it as a fact but rather a perception. And that even continued into the 80's in the US Army. I know because I was an armorer then and ran 1911 ranges. And I would have green LT's and CPT's out there somehow missing these giant targets. Shooting into the ground in front of them. When I would try to coach them, some of them would blow me off entirely by saying some variation of, "These old guns are so loose that nobody can actually shoot them accurately."

We had one S-3 Major who was different. He shot outside of the service. And he let me coach him on hand position and stance. Then when we had junior officers that questioned whether our old 1911's would shoot, we would each take one and give a side by side demonstration. We would start on opposite sides and flatten the pop up targets from the side to where we met in the middle. We would run 2-3 magazines each and then turn around to our audience. Who usually looked completely shocked.

All that said... if you had put one of those old guns into a Ransom Rest, I would seriously doubt you would get better than 3-4 inches at 25 yards. But that's good enough to hit the giant Army targets at close range!

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Old January 31, 2013, 04:23 PM   #30
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There's a reason why 1911s off all variants are being used in competition.
I agree, but I don't think one of those reasons is because the design is somehow inherently accurate.

100+ years of experience customizing them.

Vast amount of aftermarket parts.

Which allow you to use those parts and knowledge to build a custom gun that feels and functions in the way you prefer.

That includes the ability to get a crisp single action trigger pull.

And the ability to put well designed sights on the gun.

Single stack mag means that the gun can be customized to fit any hand size.

And Americans like .45's.

A gun that can be customized forever, has a great trigger, great sights, fits your hand, and shoots .45 ACP. I'm not surprised they are popular.

But you avoided my basic fact. If you were a gun designer today and you were creating a brand new handgun with a fresh sheet of paper AND your primary requirement was accuracy... would you give it a 1911 action? With a lockup that has to drop out of the slide and a bushing up front? I highly doubt it!

Gregg
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Old January 31, 2013, 04:23 PM   #31
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1911

Military 1911's "loose"? Perhaps after many many years of service and many rebuilds that may have ended up being the case. However, if you read the 1911 pistol evaluation study for the 1914 Expeditionary Force to fight WWI. If the "testing" booklet can be believed (it's so incredible I'm not sure I believe it! Maybe it's lies and propaganda to encourage the troops). Only the absolute top tier full custom and some semi-custom 1911's come close in performance today. I've seen the Booklet at gun shows and perused it. I'll try to buy the next one I see. The reliability, accuracy of the pistol and the performance of the men shooting them is simply remarkable.
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Old January 31, 2013, 04:48 PM   #32
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True. My 1918 Colt is not loose. It doesn't rattle when you shake it... as long as you hold the grip safety. Barrel fit is as good as or better than the typical mass produced 21st century clone. And it is an AA rework at that.

Worn out training range guns gave the real weapon a bad name.
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:06 PM   #33
Shane Tuttle
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Originally Posted by tulsamal
But you avoided my basic fact. If you were a gun designer today and you were creating a brand new handgun with a fresh sheet of paper AND your primary requirement was accuracy... would you give it a 1911 action? With a lockup that has to drop out of the slide and a bushing up front? I highly doubt it!
I didn't avoid anything. I'll even break down your assertions and provide my formed opinion why lamens' terms. Main reason is I'm not very articulate. Smaller reason is most of what's left of an audience to read my dissertation will probably fall asleep.

1. "I agree, but I don't think one of those reasons is because the design is somehow inherently accurate."

Have you read up on why so many gunsmiths use the 1911 platform for their choice of competition? Some reasons, I admit, are due to their popularity. But do you really think if a shooter is serious about precision target shooting they'd compromise by choosing a "popular" firearm?

2. "With a lockup that has to drop out of the slide and a bushing up front? I highly doubt it!"

You can say the same about the firearm of your choice with a second rate trigger. Human factor will ALWAYS have to be taken into account if trying to choose what's the most accurate firearm. Prove your point all you want by taking the human element out of the equation by using a Ransom rest. But when it's time to compete, no one is using a Ransom. Therefore, you have to take into account what design is best for the shooter. The trigger is the single, most important variable to consider when looking for accuracy when combining the human element and the gun itself.

The design of the slide and bushing doesn't matter if fitted correctly. The bullet is long gone before the barrel drops out of lockup. And, yes, many renowned gunsmiths haven't blinked an eye on this setup. Wilson Combat, Les Baer (known to be really tight on his tolerances), Ed Brown, and others prove that alone.

I've ran into armorers for the military. This is strictly what they've told me so I understand this point can easily be dismissed since it's heresay. What they told me was for general servicing of firearms, bringing them back into serviceable condition doesn't equate to repairing them back to exact original spec. If it functioned safely and was reasonably within tolerances to put back into service for a set standard timeframe, it's good to go. With that, I tend to think the 1911s you're using as reference isn't exactly a valid argument of why 1911s aren't one of the top choices.

One more thing, tulsamal: Thank you for your service.
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:14 PM   #34
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Candidates:
-A good target .22LR pistol. I used to shoot at spent shotgun shells freehand at 25 yards.
-long barreled .357 or .44mag revolver. We used to play the old cowboy myth of shooting 200 yards with revolvers to keep the BG's heads down. You can actually hit a mansized target. I don't think 1911s could do that.
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Old January 31, 2013, 07:18 PM   #35
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My most accurate pistol is a S&W model 52. Certainly not a combat or carry gun. But damn it is accurate.
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Old January 31, 2013, 08:26 PM   #36
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Most "inaccuracy" in handguns is generated by the shooter.


Extremely meaningless in the context of the thread.
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Old January 31, 2013, 08:49 PM   #37
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The most accurate pistol I've ever shot was a friend's souped up Ruger 22/45

That said I hear the Sig 210 is regarded as one of the most accurate pistols, if not the most accurate.
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Old January 31, 2013, 08:56 PM   #38
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The best 1911s, built by the best builders are among the most accurate handguns in existence.

There are some factory pistols that will give even the best 1911s a run for the money though. The Sig P210 is one of them.
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Old January 31, 2013, 08:59 PM   #39
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That said I hear the Sig 210 is regarded as one of the most accurate pistols, if not the most accurate.

It certainly is...








The S&W 952 would be another.


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Old February 1, 2013, 01:08 AM   #40
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If you were a gun designer today and you were creating a brand new handgun with a fresh sheet of paper AND your primary requirement was accuracy... would you give it a 1911 action? With a lockup that has to drop out of the slide and a bushing up front? I highly doubt it!
Well, if you also want that gun to be a magazine feed semi-auto in a major caliber such as 9mm or .45 then you are going to have to use some sort of locked breech design, the most common of which is John Browning's tilt barrel design.

And while some may malign the barrel bushing on the 1911, it's one of the things that helps make the gun accurate. Along with the rear lugs being fitted, a tightly fitted bushing keeps the barrel locked up in the slide and pointing in the same direction every time. Even on a lowly production gun installing a tighter fitting bushing can usually make a noticeable difference in the gun's accuracy without affecting its function.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:22 AM   #41
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But you avoided my basic fact. If you were a gun designer today and you were creating a brand new handgun with a fresh sheet of paper AND your primary requirement was accuracy... would you give it a 1911 action? With a lockup that has to drop out of the slide and a bushing up front? I highly doubt it!
I doubt it as well. Starting from the ground up some form of blow back or other design with a fixed barrel would probably be the best starting point.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:39 AM   #42
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TC contender
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:40 AM   #43
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long barreled .357 or .44mag revolver. We used to play the old cowboy myth of shooting 200 yards with revolvers to keep the BG's heads down. You can actually hit a mansized target. I don't think 1911s could do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2cnop15VA8
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:42 AM   #44
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There's lots of fine, very accurate, pistols out there that are not 1911's:

T and C-Series Hi-Powers (I'm sure others are equally as good)
Sig P210
Sig X-Five
Sphinx pistols
Korth semi-auto (I have no personal shooting experience with one, just gawking)
HK pistols
Steyr GB (On my list because of how accurate it is w/ its fixed barrel)


In my opinion, there's nothing all that special about 1911's. It's all about the work that goes into the gun itself. So, some 1911's that have been made to perfecting standards are great guns. Likewise, other designs/makes that have been made to equally perfecting standards are just as good, if not better.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:04 AM   #45
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1911, are they the most accurate pistol?

If they are, what pistol would be next in line for accuracy? THANKS!!!!
Most accurate I've seen overall?
Glock 30.
No question about it.

If it didn't mean giving up my hammer guns, I'd get a 30 in a heartbeat.

Remarkably accurate machine...
Highly underrated for it's accuracy.
Possibly the single most underrated gun made in that respect.

It's the only centerfire semi auto I've seen that, box stock, comes close to being as accuate as a box stock S&W revolver.
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Old February 2, 2013, 12:53 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Skans View Post
There's lots of fine, very accurate, pistols out there that are not 1911's:

T and C-Series Hi-Powers (I'm sure others are equally as good)
Sig P210
Sig X-Five
Sphinx pistols
Korth semi-auto (I have no personal shooting experience with one, just gawking)
HK pistols
Steyr GB (On my list because of how accurate it is w/ its fixed barrel)


In my opinion, there's nothing all that special about 1911's. It's all about the work that goes into the gun itself. So, some 1911's that have been made to perfecting standards are great guns. Likewise, other designs/makes that have been made to equally perfecting standards are just as good, if not better.
I own all of those and would agree with most.
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:25 PM   #47
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I've never been able to shoot a 1911 accurately which is most likely my fault. I'm sure they can be very accurate guns in the right hands though.
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:53 PM   #48
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Most accurate most certainly not but accurate enough, you decide:

http://imageshack.us/a/img819/8791/1...hallenge45.jpg
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Old February 3, 2013, 10:34 AM   #49
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There are too many variables to make such a sweeping statement. A custom 1911 race gun is certainly up there. But some of the most accurate combat based designs would have to include the Sig P210 and HK P9S Sport. Don't discount the Desert Eagle in .44 Mag, either. I've read a test where 5 different types of off shelf ammo in an off the shelf DE ranged from 0.99 to 1.5 inches at 25 yds, with most being 1.3 inches or better. And I have no doubt that gun would do very nicely at 50 yds. The M1 Carbine like short stroke piston in the gas system used by the DE does a nice job of minimizing recoil, and weighing 4.5 lbs doesn't hurt, either.

But again, we're getting into variables.
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Old February 3, 2013, 11:54 AM   #50
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Most accurate most certainly not but accurate enough, you decide:

http://imageshack.us/a/img819/8791/1...hallenge45.jpg
Not enough info to tell.
Without the target's distance, that group means nothing, it could have been shot at 3 yards for all I know.
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