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Old January 30, 2013, 06:40 PM   #26
Nathan
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Something I have to ask of the "I hate DAO, give me a DA/SA crowd..."....Where does your first shot go?

I like DAO and striker fired. In that type, I like XD best, DAO S&W revolver 2nd, but I do fine with my Glock, and Kahr too.

It is really all about learning how to break the shot when the sights are aligned. First you must master when the trigger will break, then controlling that happening when the sights are on target. With practice, it is pretty subconcious.

Really learn a triggers break point first, then practice moving the gun to the POA as it breaks.

Even if you never use a DAO or DA gun again, this skill could unlock hidden SA skills.
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Old January 30, 2013, 06:49 PM   #27
serf 'rett
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While equipment makes a difference, proper practice has a much larger impact. A long smooth pull has to be learned, but once mastered, you can do well with most any firearm - provided you become competent in the other parts of marksmanship – sight alignment, grip, stance, breath control, front sight focus, etc.

A friend got a new 40S&W Sigma and was complaining that it didn’t seem to shoot very well. While he has hunted for years, he hasn’t owned a pistol. When with him to the range a couple of weeks later and watch him shoot several 12-15 inch groups from 15 feet. He was wondering if there was a problem with the pistol and asked me to shoot it. This particular pistol had a horrendous trigger; however, I easily shot a 4 inch group from 15 yards (three times the distance he was shooting from) the first time I shot the Sigma. Even with the poor trigger, I thought the pistol had some good potential for the investment.

The main difference between our groups wasn’t due to the equipment, but to the experience.
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Old January 30, 2013, 07:01 PM   #28
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Great replies and experiences, thank you to all!

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Also try to "call" your shots as they break, this will emphasize your focus on sight alignment and knowing where the round was going when the gun went off.
I don't quite understand this - could you please explain more? Thanks.

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Reason I asked if there was a stipulation on what you can qualify with, can ya borrow another firearm from a buddy to qualify with and later on pick ya up something you like better trigger wise?
I thought this is why you asked. I could do that - the place where we are taking our CCW in March does offer a rental pistol for their class. They offer the Smith & Wesson 22A 22 lr. The thing is, I really like the idea of the DAO with no manual safety and I would like to carry this type. I would much rather prefer to qualify with what I plan to carry. I know I can do it, just needing some tips on how to get there

Quote:
It is really all about learning how to break the shot when the sights are aligned. First you must master when the trigger will break, then controlling that happening when the sights are on target. With practice, it is pretty subconcious.

Really learn a triggers break point first, then practice moving the gun to the POA as it breaks.
I imagine myself wanting to stage the trigger while learning where the trigger breaks and I read that staging the trigger is not good practice. How can I learn where the trigger break is (which I assume is when the gun goes bang?) while not staging the trigger? It makes perfect sense to be able to be sure the sights are on target when the trigger breaks, and tips on this would be greatly appreciated.

Again, many thanks for all the help to everyone. The firearm crowd sure is a friendly and helpful one!
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Old January 30, 2013, 07:18 PM   #29
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I don't quite understand this
When you call your shot, youre indicating where on the target the round will impact from the sight picture/target relationship at the time the shot broke.

In other words, and somewhat simplified, the last thing you saw when the shot broke, was a perfect sight alignment that drifted slightly towards 1 o'clock. If you called it right, thats where the hole in the target should be, somewhere between the "X" and the edge of the bull at 1 o'clock.

What it tells you is, youre paying attention to what youre doing and your sights, and you know right where the round was headed at the time it broke. If it goes somewhere else, youre not paying attention, and/or doing something you shouldnt be. You should know where the round went, good or bad.

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I imagine myself wanting to stage the trigger while learning where the trigger breaks and I read that staging the trigger is not good practice.
I suppose this falls under a definite "maybe".

I stage the trigger too at times, when it needs to happen. Most of the time, I usually just stroke it. Hmmm, I know what I meant, and you know what I meant, but it still doesnt sound right.

Quote:
How can I learn where the trigger break is
Technically, youre not supposed to know. Realistically, we want to, and at times, need to. The only way to really know, or at least have a good idea, is to spend some time with the gun.

The downside to knowing, is it can cause you issues with anticipation and flinching, especially with heavy recoiling guns. The idea is to focus on the sights, and not worry about the break. To much anyway.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:17 PM   #30
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Does trigger pull weight say from 5 to 9 lbs have a significant difference in shooter's accuracy? The pistol I am wanting to use for CC has a 9 lb (as spec'd by the mfg.) trigger pull. I didn't think this was too heavy for a DAO as it is mainly the safety feature of these pistol's design, no?
There are (at least) two elements that have a bearing on your query:

1. A heavier trigger will allow you a margin of safety if you do something "stupid," or do something unintentionally under stress.

2. BUT a trigger that is TOO heavy will make you a less accurate shooter. And shooting accurately is important for two reasons:

a. You need a good hit to stop a determined attacker with a handgun -- especially if you're determined to carry a .380 (or worse, something smaller in caliber).

b. If you miss the attacker and hit an innocent person, you're responsible. If that person dies, it's called negligent homicide in most jurisdictions.

3. At the risk of reiterating advice you probably don't want to hear -- get yourself a reliable handgun (Glock, M&P, SIG, HK) in 9mm (or bigger if you can truly handle a larger caliber). Those guns will (a) be reliable, (b) have a good combat trigger, (c) have good sights, and (d) be of sufficient size to be manageable (with practice) and carry enough ammo to take care of 98% of the encounters in which you may find yourself.

4. You'll be hard-pressed to find a more reliable handgun than a Glock, M&P, SIG or HK. You'll be hard-pressed to find a less reliable handgun than a Kel-Tec. (Please take these as facts, not as random internet opinions.)

5. Good luck.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:55 PM   #31
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Thanks, Dawg23 - I understand your points very well, and they make perfect sense. Money is tight right now but I do agree on your statement to be sure to have a reliable and well functional weapon. A bit of time is needed for that - though the CPX-2 is showing to be reliable thus far. The Kel Tec has jammed a few times.

AK103K - I had read prior about stroking the trigger so I know what you meant even though it does sound a bit strange I now understand what you meant by calling the shots and I will practice that next range trip. I am hoping to always be yelling, "center... center... center" though realistically will be yelling, "7:00... 8:00... 7:00"
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Old January 30, 2013, 10:02 PM   #32
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Curious - would a laser be a helpful use for dry fire practice? I'm wondering if seeing the laser light jump on the target when the trigger is pulled would keep me more aware of what I am doing. Then again, I think that when I am not using the laser that I might go back to square one bad habits. Perhaps muscle memory will take over?
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Old January 30, 2013, 10:03 PM   #33
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I am hoping to always be yelling, "center... center... center"
LOL, arent we all.

You learn more if youre honest with yourself though.
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Old January 30, 2013, 10:59 PM   #34
Nathan
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Quote:
I imagine myself wanting to stage the trigger while learning where the trigger breaks and I read that staging the trigger is not good practice. How can I learn where the trigger break is (which I assume is when the gun goes bang?) while not staging the trigger? It makes perfect sense to be able to be sure the sights are on target when the trigger breaks, and tips on this would be greatly appreciated.
Dryfire is really the key to learning where it will break(fire). I literally do this about 100 times with a new gun and then about 20 per night until I really know it before wasting a lot of ammo.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:18 PM   #35
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Of course, you can get used to anything, but I can't imagine using a DAO pistol, especially for self defense. Unless you've fired a LOT of shots through it in practice, your accuracy is going to be into left field. Also, it can't fire anywhere near as fast as a SA semiauto.

My SIG 2022 9mm is a D/S, where the first shot is DA, and subsequent shots are SA. The SA trigger is VERY light, about 4 lbs, and I can easily let off 5 to 6 rounds per second with it, almost like a machine gun. The long DA pull of the first shot acts as an effective safety, so you don't have to worry about flipping a safety off before you shoot. And if you have an extra half-second, you can thumb back the hammer when you draw so the first shot will be SA, too.

I've talked to a number of newbie gun owners who had no concept of SA and DA, who didn't know what they were, and go buy some cheap DAO gun and get disappointed because they can't hit the side of a barn with it.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:24 PM   #36
AK103K
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Also, it can't fire anywhere near as fast as a SA semiauto.
Actually, with the right shooter, I believe youll find a revolver is faster than an auto when it comes to cycling. The autos cant cycle fast enough.
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:01 AM   #37
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Of course, you can get used to anything, but I can't imagine using a DAO pistol, especially for self defense. Unless you've fired a LOT of shots through it in practice, your accuracy is going to be into left field. Also, it can't fire anywhere near as fast as a SA semiauto.

My SIG 2022 9mm is a D/S, where the first shot is DA, and subsequent shots are SA. The SA trigger is VERY light, about 4 lbs, and I can easily let off 5 to 6 rounds per second with it, almost like a machine gun. The long DA pull of the first shot acts as an effective safety, so you don't have to worry about flipping a safety off before you shoot.
Thanks for the reply, Ruark. With the DAO being an inaccurate firearm and should not be used for self defense purposes in your opinion, then where does the first shot of a DA/SA pistol go? I have read that the first shot is most likely the most crucial...?? I would think that training with a DA/SA with one shot being double action and then 9 or more being single action, that the muscle memory would favor the single action side. Thoughts?
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:31 AM   #38
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With the DAO being an inaccurate firearm and should not be used for self defense purposes in your opinion, then where does the first shot of a DA/SA pistol go?
The first shot in DA/DAO goes where the sights were, or the gun was pointed, when the shot broke.

Back when I was hot on SIG's, I shot this at about 10 yards with my DA P229 in 357SIG. Each round on the target was shot DA, most from the holster, some from my arm hanging at my side, and after the shot, the gun decocked, reholstered, and done again. Theres some movement in there too, and not all shots were static. As you can see, it aint a perfect world, but thats why we practice, right?



This one was a little closer, same thing, but 3-4 shot bursts, starting with the first shot DA, with the last one or two to the head...



Different trigger type, but same basic thing as the first target above at about 10 yards with my Glock 17.

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Old January 31, 2013, 11:42 AM   #39
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I understand that this topic is about DAO, but so many different firearms have been mentioned in comparison to the OPs pistols, that it makes it a non issue. The OP told us what his 2 firearms were. Small compact pistols, with the SCCY PX-2 having a barrel no longer than 3.1 inches. the Keltec is even smaller. IMHO, the OP fired his wifes Bersa better for two possible reasons. Longer site radius and perhaps the DA/SA trigger. The OP admitted to be a novice. That in itself would lead me to think that he was trying to learn on what many would call a hard firearm to hit with. Just as with revolvers, it is commonly said that below a 3 inche barrel is for very close range. So his pistols are as small as a snub nose revoler. Not many would advocate that a novice should learn on them first. I personally believe the OP should have started with a full size firearm first, than try the compact guns next. I understand having buget restrictions, but to expect 2 inch groups from pistols of this size while just learning to shoot would be unrealistic for me. I do hope he masters his pistols, but he may be creating bad habits now that would make it worse for him to more to a larger pistol later, but than again if he masters something this small, it may only help. I myself and not sure which way it would go. Good luck to the OP, hope he can do it. All for this is just IMHO and YMMW.
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Old January 31, 2013, 12:42 PM   #40
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Bryan, when I bought the SCCY I tried the trigger on the S&W SD40VE (no 9's in stock). The SCCY felt much better. But, like RobK pointed out, a short barrel is for short range. As much as I like the CPX-2, I do find a 1911, with the 5" barrel and S/A trigger more fun to shoot. Who wouldn't? Which one conceals better? Which one do I usually carry? The SCCY, of course. It is every bit as reliable as any other hand gun I have. Pretty much as others said, practice, practice, practice. It will never be a "range gun", but for a SD carry gun it fits the bill just fine.
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:07 PM   #41
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Out of curiosity, can anyone recommend a good, true DAO auto?
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:11 PM   #42
bonefamily
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Great shooting, AK103K! I hope to be as good of a shot without taking too much time. I'm sure that accuracy comes with a good amount of time and good practice.

@ Robk - thanks for the words. Yes, I am a novice. The wife and I just started shooting this past fall. It started with the wife wanting to get her CCW as I work third shift and it is just her and the kiddies at home alone at night. At first it was just going to be a home defense weapon, but there are also times she is out and about with just her and the kids and has felt an easy target at times - shopping, parking lots, malls, etc., so decided to go for the carry. She asked if I would take the course with her and I without hesitiation agreed as it is something I have been considering for a long time. I always thought she was anti gun but to my surprise she has always been for it (go figure after 17 years of marriage to keep learning new things). So, with this in mind our search starting with smaller, concealable weapons. As directed by a couple of our LGS', they recommended handguns in the 3" barrel range. We did tell them that we were new shooters, but they still felt that a 3" barrel was fine to begin with as that is what they sell the most of to new shooters. With us not knowing any other, we went along with what was recommended. The wife's first pistol was a Hi Point C9 9mm. That went back to the shop even before firing as she could not muscle enough to rack the slide. She exchanged that for a Phoenix Arms HP22A .22lr which she could charge fine. She still has that one and loves to shoot it. To date it has fed anything she will put in it, and that has been whatever ammunition we have found. From there she picked up a little Taurus PLY-25 .25 auto. That did not go well with her because she hated the DAO trigger. We traded that in on what she has now, her Bersa Thunder 380. She likes that one very much and is a keeper in her words.

When I was selecting my pistol, I first looked at the Kel Tec PF-9 - as was also recommended by the LGS owner. I asked around on the forums and found it was a little snappy shooter. I decided to pass on it and went with it's little brother, the P-32 (you know, thinking that if concealabilty has a factor - the smaller the better. However, I quickly learned that the smaller is not always the better. The P-32 shoots very nice in terms of recoil, but as you stated the sights are very close together and are quite minimal. I am ok with it at very close range (which I believe is what the gun was meant for) but anything longer than 10ft... forgetaboutit. So, I went back and also picked up the PF-9. I was more accurate with it but it was indeed a snappy shooter. However, I did like the small but not too small size of it so started looking around at other smaller 9mm's that were easier in the felt recoil area. This lead me to the SCCY CPX-2. I can say that it is easier to shoot in terms of felt recoil, the muzzle flip is not as bad IMO, the sights are a bit easier to see, and it fills the hand nicer. I like the pistol quite well, just need to get my DAO trigger skills up to par.

@ h2otoo - thanks for the words and good to see a familiar name Yes, the CPX-2 was meant for a carry weapon and I'm sure I will get the trigger down. I just hope I do so before the March 23rd CCW class. I don't know the requirements in other states for qualification, but in Ohio is it 21 ft.

Last edited by bonefamily; January 31, 2013 at 05:26 PM.
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Old January 31, 2013, 06:20 PM   #43
AK103K
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Out of curiosity, can anyone recommend a good, true DAO auto?
I had a SIG P250 that had a very nice DAO trigger. A lot of people dont seem to like it, but once you get used to it, its very easy to shoot well with. Its trigger draw is a little long, but light and buttery smooth. I had an early one, and next to my P245, that was factory converted to DAO (not DAK), it was the next nicest DA SIG trigger I ever had.

I dont know if SIG is still doing the true DAO triggers as an aftermarket thing, but that P245's trigger was something to marvel at.


Quote:
I hope to be as good of a shot without taking too much time. I'm sure that accuracy comes with a good amount of time and good practice.
Lots of live practice and dry fire.

Dry fire is a lot more important than you might think too.

If you take your time, focus on the basics, practice right, and dont try to rush things, it will go quicker. Start close (read that "real close" at first) and work your way back as you get better. Its a lot less frustrating that way.
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Old January 31, 2013, 06:57 PM   #44
bonefamily
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If you take your time, focus on the basics, practice right, and dont try to rush things, it will go quicker. Start close (read that "real close" at first) and work your way back as you get better. Its a lot less frustrating that way.
Thanks for the tips and all the help, AK!
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:49 PM   #45
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Yes the Sig P250 has a nice DA trigger. So do the Kahrs. I once shot a Berretta 92 that had been somehow converted into DAO, and it was nice.

My wife has an LC9, and the trigger pull is long, but smooth and light. By the time it breaks, the trigger is right up against the grip frame. I can see how that would bother some people.
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Old February 1, 2013, 02:46 PM   #46
bonefamily
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Ok, first dry fire session today and I was surprised by the results. First, the wife and I dedicated a place where we would do our dry fire practice. We live in a bi-level and the area we dedicated, the other side of the wall is underground. I was sure to clear my pistol and left the magazine and all ammo locked in the safe.

What surprised me was that I am not pulling the shots when the trigger breaks. I intended to fire as slow as I could and watch as carefully as I could and I was staying on target througout the entire tigger pull. I watched my finger once and it is going straight back, not angled. Though this seemed like good news, I am now afraid of what I really didn't want to know.... could I be flinching during live fire?
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Old February 1, 2013, 04:31 PM   #47
AK103K
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Could be. Anticipation of the shot isnt uncommon, even with people who have been shooting a long time. You also want to follow through, and hold that sight picture through the hammer fall, and with a live round, through the cycle, so youre right back to a sight picture when its complete.

One thing you can try if you think your are doing it, is while youre shooting, revert to "dry fire mode" and mentally tell yourself youre dry firing, and all that will happen when the shot breaks, is the hammer will fall in a click and youll be holding the sight picture on target, even after the fall, calling your shot. Concentrate on a perfect sight alignment and stroke or squeeze the trigger. Think of it as psyching yourself out.
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Old February 1, 2013, 06:44 PM   #48
bonefamily
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Thanks, AK - I'll try that...
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Old February 2, 2013, 03:41 AM   #49
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Another variable missed...

What about the very accuracy of the pistols themselves?

All this fetish about the trigger don't mean anything if the rest of the firearm is incapable of keeping its shots inside of 6 inches at 25 yards.

That's the performance level of the Kel-Tec I've dealt with. Some loads do 8-10 inches.

Give me a snub-nose S&W .38 Special or .357 revolver and I'll show you four inches or less, standing on my hind legs and arms unsupported, at a full 25 yards.

To reverse a common cliche here in the Gunny world, maybe YOU *are* more accurate that those two guns.
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Old February 2, 2013, 08:26 PM   #50
bonefamily
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To reverse a common cliche here in the Gunny world, maybe YOU *are* more accurate that those two guns.
As new a shooter that I am, I highly doubt it
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