The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 29, 2013, 08:11 PM   #1
chickenmcnasty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 148
General musket info

So, i am officially in love with shooting black powder rifles. I love everything about them. The smoke, the kick, the sound and just the feel of the rifle.
I had a lot of issues when i first got my kentucky, but thanks to the members of this forum i got everything ironed out. For that i am eternally grateful. Thank you all.
Now, onto my next question. I would really like a smoothbore. I want to try some turkey hunting with it eventually.
Can anyone offer suggestions as to which type would be ideal? It doesnt have to be pretty, just functional. Any advice or just a general rundown would be great.


Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2
chickenmcnasty is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 12:04 PM   #2
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,807
Not a lot to go on. Do you want to go all out old timey and use a flintlock? Will caplock be ok? Are you looking for more modern in-line (hope not)? How much you willing to spend on a smoothbore? For turkeys you will want 20 gauge or larger. If the barrel isn't choked you'll want a nice long barrel (my fowler has 46" barrel), and you will probably want to keep shots within 30 yards (if you can dial in a good pattern with it). Lots to consider.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 12:16 PM   #3
chickenmcnasty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 148
A caplock would be okay, im interested in flinters but somewhat intimidated by the process.
Can you tell me more about the fowler? Can these be had on a budget or will they all be pricey?

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2
chickenmcnasty is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 02:06 PM   #4
BCarp
Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: Port Crane, NY
Posts: 31
Chick,
If you're after a flintlock smoothbore at a "budget" price, you can try to find a used piece, or consider the Made-in-India guns that appeared on the market a few years back. Otherwise, new Pedersoli guns and anything custom (or "semi-custom") is going to start around $900.00 and go up from there!

Many guys disparage the quality of the India guns (mostly guys that haven't owned one!) but the ones I've seen in use are quite reliable. Are they the quality of the Italian or custom guns? No, but for someone without a ton of bucks to spend, they are a good starter gun.

This guy sells them, and for an extra $50.00 will tune up the lock, polishing and hardening the internals, etc.:
http://flintlockrepair.com/FrenchFusil.html

Another good source for these is Loyalist Arms up in Canada. They buy the components from India, then do quality control on the parts before assembling the final gun. Great customer service, too:
http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers....tcmuskets.html

Don't be afraid of flintlocks! They are easy to learn to use, and are WAY more reliable than many people think...!
__________________
Brian Carp
"Powder, patch, ball!"
BCarp is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 02:46 PM   #5
chickenmcnasty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 148
Thanks for the links and info. I will check them later on after work.
If looking for used guns, what do i need to be weary of? I would love to find one laying around at a pawn shop, but i would be nervous as i dont know much about them.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2
chickenmcnasty is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 02:53 PM   #6
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,856
Loyalist Arms flintlocks don't have the touch hole drilled. I'd be leery of the India made guns as sold by Middlesex and Loyalist. Their reputation is in the crapper. I'd look for a used Pedersoli.
Hawg is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 02:59 PM   #7
maillemaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,054
Yeah definitely what Hawg said.

Loyalist Arms makes decoration pieces that some people have been drilling out to make them function like actual firearms.

In my opinion, this is dangerous.

If you are going to buy a firearm, buy something that was manufactured with the intent of being a firearm.

Steve
maillemaker is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 04:04 PM   #8
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,807
If caplock is ok, look for a used pedersoli double barrel in 10 or 12 gauge. They are pricey new or used, but that second shot sure comes in handy (pedersoli doubles seem to go for $450-$600 used). You can also find CVA double barrel caplock shotguns on Gunbroker for less than a pedersoli. I hear they are quite functional, just fit and finish may not be as good ($250 -$450 on Gunbroker). The india made muskets are hit and miss from what I've read. They can be functional if you are willing to work with them a bit. Personally, like others here said, I wouldn't spend my money or time on them. You can also save some money by buying an Indian Trade Gun kit (Indian, as in American Indian). Several sites online sell kits and finished Trade guns (try Dixie Gun Works, Track of the Wolf, etc.).
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 05:21 PM   #9
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,856
For turkey hunting the Pedersoli double would be an excellent choice.

Hawg is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 05:45 PM   #10
BCarp
Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: Port Crane, NY
Posts: 31
The Loyalist Arms guns are NOT "decorative pieces." They are actual firearms that come with the vent holes drilled. They ship the locks separately to avoid legalities. (It is another Canadian vendor that sells the un-drilled guns.)

My brother has owned and shot one of Loyalist's "Brown Bess" muskets for years, and it sparks better - with fewer misfires - than any Pedersoli I've experienced (and I've owned one of those!). I myself owned a flintlock pistol from Loyalist that was just fine.

Again, the fit and finish of the India guns is not fantastic, which is reflected in the prices. But, there's nothing wrong with the barrel steel or the breech plugs, and the lock springs are nice and strong. The folks condemning these guns have by-and-large never owned one.

I dumped over $1100 on a custom English long fowler, which I love. I know the difference between the "classes" of muzzle-loader, as I've been shooting the things for 40 years. Many can't spend that kind of money. The India guns fill a niche for the beginner, or those with spending constraints....
__________________
Brian Carp
"Powder, patch, ball!"
BCarp is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 06:35 PM   #11
maillemaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,054
Quote:
The Loyalist Arms guns are NOT "decorative pieces." They are actual firearms that come with the vent holes drilled. They ship the locks separately to avoid legalities.
Sorry, that's a "non-gun" in my book.

If they can't legally sell it as a gun, you should be concerned. Those "legalities" exist for a reason.

Steve
maillemaker is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 06:50 PM   #12
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,856
I dunno as I've never owned one from Loyalist or Middlesex but I have seen a number of posts on different forums as to the quality of said arms and as to the vent holes in Loyalist's not being drilled. Maybe its a recent deal drilling the holes and shipping without locks.
Hawg is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 06:51 PM   #13
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,807
Quote:
If they can't legally sell it as a gun, you should be concerned. Those "legalities" exist for a reason.
I'd have to deviate a bit on that remark. From my understanding, the legalities are so they can actually be exported from India, not because they can't be imported here. So, they are skirting India laws, not ours. I've never heard of an India gun blowing up or anything like that. They just use teak wood (usually) and stain them to look a bit like walnut (or something else), and that grits on me a bit. I have seen one that didn't spark well until the frizzen was hardened (that was several years ago). I've also seen one that had a real hard trigger pull, and had to be worked a bit to free up the works of the trigger in the stock so it had better access to the sear (owner had to remove some wood). I'm not calling them junk. I'm just saying they can be a project. I'd rather get a kit gun from Track or Dixie if I have to work on it anyway. Also, I've seen a traditions flintlock spark better than anything, but that's not the norm in my experience, YMMV.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 09:02 PM   #14
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,008
Are you looking for a musket or a fowling piece?

Both are smoothbores but a musket is a millitary arm while a fowling piece is a sporting arm designed to hunt fowl, i.e. a shotgun. A musket can certainly be used as a fowling piece however.

The most well known muskets are the Tower musket also known as the "Brown Bess" used by the Redcoats and also a lot of the Continental army. This is a .75 caliber smoothbore (11 gauge), and the French Charleville musket which was .69 caliber (14 gauge) and used by the Americans because the French were kind of on our side in the war.

There is another class of smoothbores known as "trade guns" which were built to be traded to the Indians. These were typically 20 gauge.

Also, there was a catagory of smoothbores that are commonly referred to as "smooth rifles" these had rifle style rear sights and were made in rifle calibers. Some folks felt that rifling was over-rated and preferred the easy cleaning and versitility of a smoothbore.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 10:43 PM   #15
chickenmcnasty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.L.E. View Post
Are you looking for a musket or a fowling piece?

Both are smoothbores but a musket is a millitary arm while a fowling piece is a sporting arm designed to hunt fowl, i.e. a shotgun. A musket can certainly be used as a fowling piece however.

The most well known muskets are the Tower musket also known as the "Brown Bess" used by the Redcoats and also a lot of the Continental army. This is a .75 caliber smoothbore (11 gauge), and the French Charleville musket which was .69 caliber (14 gauge) and used by the Americans because the French were kind of on our side in the war.

There is another class of smoothbores known as "trade guns" which were built to be traded to the Indians. These were typically 20 gauge.

Also, there was a catagory of smoothbores that are commonly referred to as "smooth rifles" these had rifle style rear sights and were made in rifle calibers. Some folks felt that rifling was over-rated and preferred the easy cleaning and versitility of a smoothbore.
This is awesome info and just what i was looking for.
I suppose i would like to have a fowler or musket type like the bess. Really the major obstacle would be price. I want to be in the woods huntin squirrels or turkeys and not have to worry about it picking up some scratches.
Is a bess or charleville going to be cheaper to get into than a fowler? Is it possible to find these at pawn shops and such? If so, what flaws would i look for before purchasing?
I guess, in a nutshell, i want a percussion/flinter black powder gun that i can load with shot so that i can have more time huntin than my kentucky will allow in the short muzzleloader/rifle season in kansas.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

Last edited by chickenmcnasty; January 30, 2013 at 11:04 PM.
chickenmcnasty is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 11:36 PM   #16
BCarp
Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: Port Crane, NY
Posts: 31
"Sorry, that's a "non-gun" in my book.

If they can't legally sell it as a gun, you should be concerned. Those "legalities" exist for a reason.

Steve"


With all due respect, you are confused. Regardless of what you think about their quality, these are functional firearms, not "non-guns."

Canada must have some law regarding shipping a functioning firearm, hence the separate lock shipments. If these were "non-guns" the wouldn't have to jump through such hoops, now would they..?
__________________
Brian Carp
"Powder, patch, ball!"
BCarp is offline  
Old January 31, 2013, 07:40 AM   #17
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,008
Since you're in Wichita KS, you may want to consider visiting the Red River Renegade's annual Shotgun Soiree in Electra, TX, just 20 or so miles west of Wichita Falls TX.
This is a very well attended event and draws people from across the country. It's basically just a drive across Oklahoma for you.
There is usually selection of shotguns for sale on the trading table there.

Shotguns are addicting.

http://www.redriverrenegades.com/news/2013-shotgun.pdf
B.L.E. is offline  
Old January 31, 2013, 08:50 AM   #18
BCarp
Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: Port Crane, NY
Posts: 31
This is a good site to monitor for used muzzle loaders:

http://historicaltrekking.com/forums...2f6d87f119f9f1
__________________
Brian Carp
"Powder, patch, ball!"
BCarp is offline  
Old January 31, 2013, 09:57 AM   #19
maillemaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2010
Posts: 1,054
Quote:
With all due respect, you are confused. Regardless of what you think about their quality, these are functional firearms, not "non-guns."

Canada must have some law regarding shipping a functioning firearm, hence the separate lock shipments. If these were "non-guns" the wouldn't have to jump through such hoops, now would they..?
If this is simply a case of shipping the firearm in pieces to dodge shipping regulations or something, that is one thing.

But if this is a case of shipping the firearm in pieces so as to disclaim responsibility of selling a functional firearm, that is something else entirely.

Given the history of "drill it yourself" touch holes, I'm skeptical.

Steve
maillemaker is offline  
Old January 31, 2013, 05:07 PM   #20
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,807
I seriously doubt you'll ever find one in a pawn shop. Musket or fowler. And even the India made guns cost around $600 new.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old January 31, 2013, 10:49 PM   #21
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,008
Muzzleloading is sort of a niche in the shooting world and muzzleloading fowlers or shotguns is definitely a niche within a niche.

Because no area that I know of has a special muzzleloading only waterfowl or migratory bird season, muzzleloading shotguns have escaped the inline-azion of muzzleloading. You don't get an extra hunting season because you have a muzzleloading shotgun so they are bought by people who love the lore of old muzzleloaders, not by people who buy a muzzleloader as a means to an extra hunting season.

Because of this, you are not likely to find many muzzleloading shotguns in pawn shops.

Visit the Nationals in Friendship IN or visit some other muzzleloading shotgun trap/skeet shoots and you'll come in contact with guns for sale and meet builders of fowling pieces and learn more about these guns than you'll ever pick up off the internet.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old February 1, 2013, 08:50 AM   #22
Roaddog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Location: East central Minnesota
Posts: 138
Trackofthewolf.com They have all tipes of muzzleloaders for sale on consinment. Ya should have no problem finding a fowler there.
Roaddog is offline  
Old February 2, 2013, 11:28 PM   #23
chickenmcnasty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 148
I see that there is a pedersoli harper's ferry conversion percussion musket that cabelas has on sale for $799. Would that be a piece that would be suited to hunting with shot?
Thanks again for all of the great info. I really appreciate it.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2
chickenmcnasty is offline  
Old February 3, 2013, 07:28 AM   #24
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,008
Any smoothbore can be used with shot. The biggest issue is the limitations imposed by the unchoked barrel.
That Harper's Ferry is a .69 caliber and will use 14 gauge wads which you can order from Track of the Wolf.
One ounce of shot and about 60 grains of FFg would be a good starting load.
I use a couple of 1/8 inch thick over-powder cards between the powder and shot and then a thin overshot card over the shot with good results in my fowling pieces.

You can convert caliber into gauge by dividing the caliber into 1.67 inches and then cubing the answer.
Example:
1.67/.69=2.42
2.42^3=14.17
Since it's actually a 14.17 gauge, 14 gauge wads will be a little on tight side of fitting the bore, which is a good thing.

Last edited by B.L.E.; February 3, 2013 at 07:42 AM.
B.L.E. is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12428 seconds with 9 queries