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Old January 30, 2013, 12:25 AM   #101
shootniron
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A few tens of thousands of dead attempted murderers and home invaders might argue that the .40 had proven itself already.
For a law student, you should know that such a ridiculous statement would be ignored on this forum. It is fine to like the .40, but it is not necessary to pull numbers out of thin air.
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Old January 30, 2013, 01:59 AM   #102
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I mentioned that I was a law student to give a benchmark about how old I was when the .40 S&W was developed, certainly not to suggest I was smarter or more correct than anyone. The context of me mentioning that is clear, and in fact I had the moderators change my handle to LockedBreech from LawScholar several months ago purely so folks would stop bringing it irrelevantly into disagreements with me, so kindly don't use that fact to snark at me.

I would consider it almost certainly true that the number of shootings - fatal or otherwise - using a .40 S&W is 10,000+, probably more, given that it is the predominant caliber for law enforcement at the local, state, and federal levels, as well as a very popular civilian handgun cartridge. While it is true I didn't bear my burden of presenting cold numbers, then, my statement was not out of "thin air" but was a very roughly calculated estimate done in a quick jot of imprecise mental math on a mobile phone while I waited for my food to get done at the pizza place (note the lack of a signature on that post -that happens when I use Tapatalk for iPhone). Until such time as I locate factual information - actually, who are we kidding, I'm not going to trawl Google at midnight for an internet argument - how about we go with "a lot of dead felons and murderers", if that meets your criteria for how I should formulate my statements. The overall point of that post - that .40 S&W is a proven round several times over - stands. Many folks might prefer 9mm or .45 over it - for greater control and number of shots or the larger, heavier projectile, respectively, and perfectly logical arguments even if I disagree with them for my own personal use - but no one can seriously dispute the terminal effectiveness of the cartridge, at least for a handgun cartridge.

It's fine to not like .40, but the beginning of your post was not necessary. You could have pointed out the lack of hard data behind my statement - quite correctly! - without any reference to me personally or use of the word "ridiculous", like it appears everyone else has this entire thread, making it so far one of the more civil threads of this type I've posted in. It would have been "ridiculous" if I suggested that .40 S&W turns people into lobsters. My post merely made a factual statement without data, that's all. Unsound argumentation to be sure, but not "ridiculous".

I shouldn't be surprised, though, being as even on the best forums a caliber discussion will almost certainly lead to a personal jab at some point.
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Old January 30, 2013, 02:11 AM   #103
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IMHO it needs to be adopted by the military and used in some war before it is "proven" to some people.

I'm not sure exactly what there is to prove. Prove the round fires a projectile at high speed? Prove that it can stop someone? Prove that you can walk into Walmart in 40 years and find it on the shelf?

Answers: yep, if you hit something, who the hell knows?
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Old January 30, 2013, 03:24 AM   #104
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It's fine to not like .40,
I have no problem with the .40 and it is a proven caliber by any measure one cares to apply to it. I do not own the caliber, never have and would probably never buy one other than to resell at some point in the future. So, I have said nothing in this thread to demean or discredit it and will not. But, I do find it laughable when someone uses outlandish phrases to support their position.
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Old January 30, 2013, 03:33 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by shootniron View Post
I have no problem with the .40 and it is a proven caliber by any measure one cares to apply to it. I do not own the caliber, never have and would probably never buy one other than to resell at some point in the future. So, I have said nothing in this thread to demean or discredit it and will not. But, I do find it laughable when someone uses outlandish phrases to support their position.
Your insistence on continuing to exaggerate a simple unsupported statement that I have fully admitted was unsupported and your clear unwillingness to admit you were needlessly uncivil means I'm done with you. I don't feed trolls.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:16 AM   #106
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Caliber wars - fun. Anyway, from the presentations I've heard - it seems that we can't find truly significant and large effect sizes that favor one of the modern 9s, 40s, or 45s over the rest.

That seems a reasonable conclusion that you choose one of the three you shoot well, like the gun, is affordable, etc.

I like my 9 and 45. They go boom on demand.

For old folks - will a new wonder caliber be introduced before we reside in a urn next to the reloading bench or on the gun safe
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:21 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by sharpsdressedman
Well, if you really want to compare the .45 to the .40, and think they are the same in performance, see what the .45 does when it is loaded to the same pressure as the .40 (the industry calls it .45ACP+P).
A .45 ACP loaded to the same pressure as a .40 S&W is commonly know in the industry as a "hand grenade".

.40 S&W runs at 35,000 PSI, .45 ACP is 21,000 PSI, and .45 ACP +P is 23,000 PSI.

A 50% overpressure in your .45 ACP +P would make things very exciting for you to say the least.
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Old January 31, 2013, 02:55 PM   #108
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I stand corrected on the pressure thing, but a .45ACP+P is still WAY more performance than anything you can eek out of a .40 due to the .40 operating, by design, at max. The .40 is not going to equal or replace the .45. It is just a fine little thing in the middle for those who don't need or or think they can handle the .45. Makes them feel warmer and fuzzier than toting a 9mm.
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Old January 31, 2013, 03:07 PM   #109
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Could be cuz nine mm ammo is cheaper...
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Old January 31, 2013, 04:27 PM   #110
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I like my 9 and 45. They go boom on demand.
I like my 9 and .45 too-as well as my .40. All three go boom on demand. In terms of which one I'd keep if I could only have one and if cost was not a factor, it'd be the "Goldielocks" cartridge, the .40 (of course, the opposing viewpoint might argue that the forty is "neither fish nor fowl"). Unfortunately, unless I should win the lottery or it turns out that I'm a distant relative of some wealthy benefactor like Ted Turner, cost will always be relevant for me and so, for that reason alone, I'd probably opt for the 9mm. What others prefer and for all the good reasons they espouse, is of little consequence to me. There are plenty of good arguments for choosing any one of the three candidates. Each to their own.



Quote:
For old folks - will a new wonder caliber be introduced before we reside in a urn next to the reloading bench or on the gun safe
I'm old enough (I'll be seventy in a couple of months) to recall a time when a new cartridge introduction happened only once every few years or so it seemed and, when it did, it merited plenty of front page attention on the few gun magazines that were then available. Nowadays, it seems, there's a new cartridge debuting each month to fawn over; a circumstance, I might add, that I find healthy and laudable for the shooting community as well as for the firearm industry as a whole. I think that we're now living in a golden age for shooting in terms of the glut of choices we have-and that some of us have gotten pretty jaded over our mutual good fortune. The more cartridges to choose from and to talk about, the merrier, I say!
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:30 PM   #111
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dgludwig, Couldn't agree more, the rifle calibers are mind blowing. I have a pretty nice bullet collection thats been going on for the past 40 years and I can't keep up lately do to all the new short, unbelted magnums out there. If you can't find what size fits you aren't looking hard enough.
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:04 PM   #112
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Kinda funny how a .400" bullet just makes you feel more "warm and fuzzy" than a .355" bullet but a .400" bullet can in no way compare to a .451" bullet given max pressures and velocity's
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:06 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Guv View Post
Kinda funny how a .400" bullet just makes you feel more "warm and fuzzy" than a .355" bullet but a .400" bullet can in no way compare to a .451" bullet given max pressures and velocity's
Exactly Agree 100%!!! We here call it "Sissy Forty"

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Old January 31, 2013, 10:13 PM   #114
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Rem Golden Saber 185+p 45 ACP 1140fps 534ft lbs
Rem Golden Saber 165 40 S&W 1150fps 485ft lbs
you're right sissy forty!
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Old February 1, 2013, 12:31 AM   #115
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As to why the .40 is more available IDK, odd considering it's explosion in popularity. Surprised to see 9 and .45 nowhere.
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Old February 1, 2013, 01:26 AM   #116
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Exactly Agree 100%!!! We here call it "Sissy Forty"
I don't know where "here" is, but I'm going to have to say that it is a bit silly.

9mm is not sissy. .45 is not sissy. .40 is not sissy either. They're all three lethal calibers.

It should be noted that a 180-grain .40 goes about 1000 FPS, which doesn't seem to be blown out of the water by a 185-grain .45 going 1100-1200 FPS.

Speer's ballistic tables for Gold Dot are as follows:

Speer Gold Dot 180-grain .40
Velocity (FPS)
Muzzle - 1025
50 Yards - 956
100 Yards - 902

Energy (foot pounds)
Muzzle - 420
50 Yards - 365
100 Yards - 325


Speer Gold Dot 185-grain .45
Velocity (FPS)
Muzzle - 1050
50 Yards - 955
100 Yards - 886

Energy (foot pounds)
Muzzle - 453
50 Yards - 375
100 Yards - 322

If the .40's tiny increase over the .355-.358 9mm is generally regarded as not being very significant, I can't see why the .45's same margin over the .40 is profound.
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Old February 1, 2013, 07:23 AM   #117
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.40

I question the premise of this thread. I do not think there is a rush to unload .40 cal. pistols. The .40 is a "snappy" round in some pistols, in others it's quite manageable. Also accurate, powerful and higher capacity than .45 - nothing wrong with the .40 at all.
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Old February 1, 2013, 11:15 AM   #118
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At the local LGS, there was plenty of brand name 40, some unknown company 45 but no 9mm.

So what does that mean?
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Old February 1, 2013, 11:53 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
At the local LGS, there was plenty of brand name 40, some unknown company 45 but no 9mm.

So what does that mean?
I give up, what?
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Old February 1, 2013, 12:23 PM   #120
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Sharpsdressed Man

I stand corrected on the pressure thing, but a .45ACP+P is still WAY more performance than anything you can eek out of a .40 due to the .40 operating, by design, at max. The .40 is not going to equal or replace the .45. It is just a fine little thing in the middle for those who don't need or or think they can handle the .45. Makes them feel warmer and fuzzier than toting a 9mm.


I have to disagree. I love the .45 and shoot it often, but if you want to eek more out of the .45 than a .40, you have to go up to a .45 Super. It's essentially a .45 ACP +P+, and can be loaded to 30K+ PSI. I load for it, and from a 5" bbl it can shoot 230gr JHP @ 1200+ fps and 200gr JHP @ 1350+ fps and 255gr hardcasts at 1150 fps.

However, the .40 can manage more than the .45 ACP/ACP +P can. While the .45 has a larger case and could hold more powder, it's lower pressure which hurts it when compared to the .40. I don't know where people get that the .40 is always somehow operating at max, that's not true. Even factory loads for 165gr can vary 200 fps, so I suppose both are "max"? Most would agree that between the three, the .40 recoils more than both the 9mm and .45, so the whole "can't handle a .45 so they shoot a .40" thing makes zero sense. It's easier to handle a .45 than it is a .40, so I guess .45 guys carry one because they can't handle the .40?

I handload for everything, and from a 5" bbl, I've shot 230gr .45's at 1000 fps with no issue using Power Pistol. But with factory loads, I know that while most 185gr +P .45 loads claim 1150 fps, they're usually doing less than 1100 fps, and just over 1000 fps from a 3.78" Glock 30 bbl. It's no problem to get a 180gr @ 1200 fps from a 4" .40 S&W, and in excess of 1300 fps from a 6" bbl. With the right powders and from a 4" barrel the .40 will shoot a 135gr over 1500 fps, 155gr at 1400 fps, 165gr over 1300 fps and 200gr over 1100 fps, throw in a longer barrel and it only gets faster.

Calling the .40 sissy is silly. I know this will go over about as well as fart in church, but the .40 is capable of MORE than the .45 ACP/ACP +P.
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Old February 1, 2013, 12:51 PM   #121
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Lets beat this dead horse again! (caliber war) I dont believe this but if there was alot of 40's being traded in there prob being traded for more 40's. Also 9s are cheap to stockpile if you can find ammo. But this thread is rediculose.
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Old February 1, 2013, 01:49 PM   #122
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The OP was tyrying to see if there were any rational, or irrational, reasons for seeing more used .40's for sale in his area. Is it better NOT to try to give him an answer, or more important to ARGUE about what the possible reasons are? Even in science, before being irrefutably disproved, theories can vary. Let's make room for the possibilities until we KNOW the answer.
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Old February 1, 2013, 04:53 PM   #123
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
At the local LGS, there was plenty of brand name 40, some unknown company 45 but no 9mm.

So what does that mean?

I give up, what?
I give up too. I just got back from my lgs, where I counted three used .45s (a Kimber 1911 and 2 Glocks) for sale; one used 9mm (a Springfield XD) and no used .40 cal. pistols for sale. They also had a couple of used Taurus revolvers for sale. So what does that mean?

I will say that this store usually has at least ten or more used handguns of one variant or another for sale and I was more than a little surprised at how few they have in stock now. Also, no used .22 handguns of any kind were for sale.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:37 PM   #124
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Can we conclude that it possibly means nothing, as reports from different regions yield different findings. Perhaps some areas are flooded with used .40's from police trade-ins, or a handful of people are swapping .40's for personal reasons. In the other areas, less .40 cal pistols might indicate higher demand for same, or shorter supply of same. It does not seem to be consistent across the nation.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:22 PM   #125
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Sounds like a reasonable assessment to me, Sharpdressed Man.
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