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Old January 25, 2013, 05:21 PM   #1
ClydeFrog
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Knoxville TN converts from the Glock .40 to the SIG Sauer P220 .45acp...

I read a interesting news item on www.wbir.com that the local PD of Knoxville TN plans to buy approx 225 new P220 .45acp duty pistols to replace the department's Glock 22/23 .40S&W models.
Among the reasons the procurement/contract officer gave the media for the big switch was that the Knoxville sworn officers shot the P220 better, it had fewer rounds in the duty magazine to go downrange & cause a serious threat to bystanders, and the .45acp round had more "stopping power" than a .40S&W duty round.
The Knoxville PD supervisors also stated the Glock service reps said the .40 pistols had a service life of only four years, compared to ten years with the more expensive P220 .45acp pistols, .

I don't disagree with a LE agency converting to a SIG Sauer P220 or P220R if they honestly felt it was better but the Glock 22 .40S&W is a highly rated sidearm in use with 1000s of US police agencies. Glock has approx 65% of the US police sidearm market.
I also do not know if these sworn LE officers with get the DAK series or the standard P220 decock version. The Knoxville PD could have also waited about 6mo & purchased the new SIG Sauer P227 .45acp model.
That would have made more sense.

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Old January 25, 2013, 05:47 PM   #2
AndyWest
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Side question. Do you cops generally have to check in/out duty weapons and magazines?
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Old January 25, 2013, 06:23 PM   #3
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US law enforcement agencies; SOPs....

I'm not a sworn LE officer but I have worked in public service jobs & the US military(MPs).
Most agencies & PDs either issue a standard sidearm(holster & ammunition) or authorize a sworn member to buy a firearm/gear from a approved list of brands or vendors.
Many smart PDs, if the have the $$$ or sources, buy a on duty sidearm & a compact 2nd gun/off duty gun with the same carry features. Like a HK P2000 & a HK P2000sk or a Glock 21 & a compact Glock 30 .45acp.
A sworn officer or agent could use full size pistol mags in either model.

BTW: my large county sheriff's office(1200+ sworn members), has used Glock 21s & the Glock 36/23/19 series since 2002 w/o any major problems.

To answer the forum ?; no, most US law enforcement officers do not sign out pistols or sidearms. Shotguns or patrol rifles, yes.

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Old January 25, 2013, 06:47 PM   #4
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"service life of 4 years"?

Oops, sounds like Glocks marketing bobbled the ball and Sig made a nice steal, unloading a bunch of soon-to-be "old" pistols for the slam dunk.


"it had fewer rounds in the duty magazine to go downrange & cause a serious threat to bystanders."

Sounds like they should have stuck with revolvers and invested in training.
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Old January 27, 2013, 01:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
"it had fewer rounds in the duty magazine to go downrange & cause a serious threat to bystanders."

Sounds like they should have stuck with revolvers and invested in training.
Good point. I can't think of a stupider reason for a le department to base a decision on which sidearm to supply their officers with than the one quoted.
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Old January 27, 2013, 01:30 PM   #6
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One size fits some Glocks suck, where is the mystery here?
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Old January 27, 2013, 01:50 PM   #7
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I never thought I'd see a dept cite reduced capacity as a bonus. I am more than a little surprised.
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Old January 27, 2013, 02:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
BTW: my large county sheriff's office(1200+ sworn members), has used Glock 21s & the Glock 36/23/19 series since 2002 w/o any major problems.
I love small towns. My county has less than 20 officers.
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Old January 27, 2013, 02:50 PM   #9
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Just because a dept switches to another brand/caliber does not mean they have have the best interest of the LEO in mind. It's always politics and not because it's "better" better for who? Service life of 4 yrs that's funny!
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:22 AM   #10
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I bet it was the Sig service reps that told them the Glock service life was four years. That's funny. Even if it was four years, most LEO's (not all) only fire their weapons once a year or every six months to qualify unless they fire it in the line of duty. My son-in- law's agency just now swapped their Glock 21's for new ones, after ten years. His old one was still going strong when they swapped them out.
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:37 AM   #11
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Often times in cases like these there is often someone high up in the food chain that prefers one brand of gun or one cartridge to another. They may or may not actually know what they are talking about, but they have the authority to make such changes so they force a switch to what they think is best. The majority of police aren't gun people and as long as whatever the new gun is works and isn't impossible to shoot, they just go with the flow.
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Old January 28, 2013, 10:53 AM   #12
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Well, I feel it's my duty as a concerned citizen to offer my pistol disposal services for Knoxville's Glocks; for paying me the minor fee of $35 per pistol, I'll be HAPPY to take them off their hands.
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Old January 28, 2013, 11:10 AM   #13
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Louisiana State Police swapped all their Glocks for Sigs several years ago. Trooper complaints ranged from elated to exasperated. The Troopers who didn't like the Sig complained of excessive rusting in the humid Louisiana climate. I'm not sure what they're carrying right now simply because I no longer care. Generally, when an agency swaps handguns, or shotguns, or rifles, there is more to the decision than simple utility. The beancounters get involved and some companies will offer steep discounts if the agency buys several hundred handguns. Many police administrators see handguns as simple bullet-launchers, and most cops aren't gun-nuts as we are.

Never forget, in police work as in the military, that your primary weapon was produced by the lowest bidder.
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Old January 28, 2013, 11:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
PawPaw Louisiana State Police swapped all their Glocks for Sigs several years ago.
Nope. You got it backwards.
LSP has carried Glocks for several years:
http://www.lsp.org/support.html
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Old January 28, 2013, 11:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
I never thought I'd see a dept cite reduced capacity as a bonus. I am more than a little surprised.
A local police department here (Columbia, SC police department) recently switched from the .45ACP SIG P220 to the 9mm FN FNS. The primary reason they cited was the greatly increased capacity of the 9mm FNS. Though I'm sure the fact that FN Manufacturing is located here in Columbia had a huge factor in the decision.
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Old January 28, 2013, 11:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Nope. You got it backwards.
LSP has carried Glocks for several years:
http://www.lsp.org/support.html
You may be right, but if I remember correctly, they were using Glocks before they swapped to Sigs, then swapped back later.

Either way, when I was hanging out with those guys, they mainly carried SW66 revolvers. (I know... I'm showing my age).
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Old January 28, 2013, 02:50 PM   #17
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Firearm purchase, for any agency, can be very tricky. Properly done you will have the instructors evaluate and make a recommendation. Or you can have one guy that rules over everyone else make a choice based on something he heard twenty years ago from a buddy. I know that police training has slowly been creeping away from 0-5 yards close engagement training emphasis to once again training at twenty yards and further. This is where a Sig pistol can do somewhat better then a glock, (yup just opened a can of worms!.) As for maintenance I don't believe any P series can out last a Glock, just my opinion.
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:07 PM   #18
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I don't know about this one. I have a like new police trade in G22 that I picked up for $325.00 out the door with nightsights and 3 mags. Gun looked like it had hardly been fired. Local PD was switching over to M&P's. Really didn't want a .40 since I've gotten away from the caliber. But I actually ended up liking the gun quite a bit. Bought a 9mm conversion barrel for it and a AA .22 kit. Quite a versatile firearm.
Accurate, never given me a bit of problem. Rests in my nightstand loaded with 165gr. Winchester Rangers. A very stout load. The gun is much more pleasant to shoot with 180 gr. rounds. I think either would do a fine job. I actually see why the gun is popular with PD's. I think a 4 year life expectancy is absurd. I know .40 is riugh on some guns but I carried a G27 for years with no problems. Yes I've seen some .40 Glocks blow up. Also a couple of Sigs and a Kahr. All but one with somebodies home brew.
I also own a factory Nickel German 220 and it is a work of art! It will shoot with any 1911 including $3000.00+ models. Has been totally reliable. And handles any loads I feed it. It is definately a "Porche" and the Glock a "VW". But I'm not sure that many can use the 220 to it's full potential. Just like most of us will never run a Porche to 175 M.P.H.. So the VW will get you there for most folks quite as well and cheaper with easier maintenance.
I can't really make a good call on this one. The G22 is cheaper, simpler design, good enough accuracy, with good round choice effective, and probably easier to learn to use. Better for "low mileage" shooters.The Sig is a throughbred. But if the traditional DA/SA a little bit more training time required. A more complex gun. A milder round to shoot. But less of them. I would say let the officers choice which ones they want to carry. No real bad choices here. Both have long histories of solid use. Shame the user can"t choose which one they prefer. But they are well armed either way.
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:22 PM   #19
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I carried a Glock19 for 10yrs?? and saw it some action the finish was worn down when i retired 15yrs now and she still runs like a swiss watch. I just changed the mag springs.My buddy really wanted it so like a fool I traded him for a harley seat I needed lol He shoots it all the time. Keep in mind too that re-loads never went down the pipe. Ah the revolver days they were scary times. There was no better feeling than running around with a 6 shot revolver while the bad guys had uzi's
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Old January 28, 2013, 04:40 PM   #20
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Something about this does not add up. I have a few distant relatives that are on the Knoxville PD. They were carrying Glocks 17's and 19's last time I spoke to them. Granted, we are not close, it has been a few years and they could have changed over to the .40's since I last spoke to them, but changing platforms and calibers twice in such a short time frame seems unlikely.

Quote:
The Knoxville PD supervisors also stated the Glock service reps said the .40 pistols had a service life of only four years
Our county PD, Sheriff's dept., Fish & Game Depts. and GSP all changed to Glock .40's in the mid 90's. That was 18 years ago. Most of those guns are still in service, although they are being replaced gradually with new Gen 4 guns. Most officers are buying their old guns for personal use. They wouldn't do that if they were worn out. The GSP was talked into changing to the G-38 in 45 GAP a few years ago. All the other agencies are still happy with the Glock 22's.
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Old January 28, 2013, 04:45 PM   #21
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I have a buddy who works for Knox Sherriff, he might not be KPD but I'm sure he will know a thing or two about the switch.
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Old January 28, 2013, 05:31 PM   #22
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The Knoxville PD supervisors also stated the Glock service reps said the .40 pistols had a service life of only four years
Sounds like a plan for continued job security that backfired.

Quote:
I don't disagree with a LE agency converting to a SIG Sauer P220 or P220R if they honestly felt it was better but the Glock 22 .40S&W is a highly rated sidearm in use with 1000s of US police agencies. Glock has approx 65% of the US police sidearm market.
I think the numbers have dropped more recently. Like down to about half.
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Old February 13, 2013, 08:34 PM   #23
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Knoxville TN police chief; Knoxnews.com report...

The Knoxville PD chief was interviewed on www.knoxnews.com . He said the sworn officers liked & wanted the P220 .45acp.
The chief stated each uniformed officer will carry five/05 8rd .45acp magazines on duty. That seems a bit high but the method is more & more common.
The Knoxville PD will spend approx $625.00 per sidearm. It's not reported if its the P220R or the DAK type.

As I said, the larger P227R DAK .45acp would be a smarter choice but they may have worked a good deal with the vendor for the Glock model trade-ins.

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Old February 14, 2013, 09:26 AM   #24
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I would bet 99% of all leos don't shoot enought rounds down range to ever wear out any major handgun brand. A old rideing buddy went from a glock to a sig 220 a few years ago when he retired from the police and went to the sheriff dep. The deptment gives options as to what you can carry and a set price they can get each for. Leos choice as to what to carry and leos pays any over charge. After a short run he sold the sig and bought another glock, a gen 4. He and a few others that picked the sig 220 had problems with them.
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Old February 14, 2013, 02:59 PM   #25
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I agree that waiting for the P227 would have been a good idea, but it might have resulted in a greater cost to the department. The very new 'everybody-wants-one gun' versus the older 'lots-of-them-in-warehouse' gun.

Still, going from, what, 8 up to 10 rounds in the magazine is a step in the right direction, and the officers could have the 14-round mags for reloads.

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