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Old January 15, 2013, 07:54 PM   #1
RockyMtnTactical
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Printable Lowers and mags, does this make gun control obsolete?

http://youtu.be/XKAaO26FAvA

How does this affect the gun control debate?

Why make 30 round mags illegal when any criminal could print one off and use it?

Last edited by RockyMtnTactical; January 15, 2013 at 09:50 PM.
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Old January 15, 2013, 08:20 PM   #3
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I'm looking for meaningful discussion on the issue. I know it has been around, but the technology is going to keep getting better.

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Old January 15, 2013, 08:30 PM   #4
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Well then I'm sure the mod before he locks the thread as a drive by, will say he was looking for meaningful discussion from you.

Personally I think its great, if people ban 3d printers because they could be used to print a lower or maybe something nefarious then why not ban syringes because people use that to shoot up.

The govt is always afraid of things they can't regulate or tax.
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Old January 15, 2013, 08:34 PM   #5
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I'm here ready to talk about it. Just wanted people to watch the video first.
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Old January 15, 2013, 09:03 PM   #6
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I watched part of the video. No offense I dont do infowars that much...WIth that said, and having watched many other videos on the same subject, I will share my thoughts.

I think its interesting and the technology will only get better in time, if allowed. The interesting idea with 3d printing is that its not only used for firearms, but for a vast aray of other uses as well on varying levels.

Basically, in reference to the 3D printing ability and gun control, I think it factors in to gun control in only that, honest law abiding folks will resist the urge to break the law if it becomes illegal in all 50 states. Criminals, hence the name typically dont follow laws so this would be one avenue for them to obtain standard capacity mags.

Things I would like to see with this printing firearm parts:

1. Im not the smartest when it comes to computers, but would love to know more about the process, and what (program and equipment wise) is involved, and how to set it up.

2. From reading of the lowers breaking that they tried, I wonder if there could be any way to have the 3D printing techniques to be able to print around/on a steal or aluminum die/brace/reinforcement/whatever you want to call it to stregnthen it. Talking about mags generally speacking, I believe it was the lancer AR mags that had steal feedlips in a polymer body. Unsure if it would work with 3D printing, let alone any issues with patents, user agreements, etc.

3. Wonder how the project could be expanded to include many other types of firearms as well.

4. I do think it will take a bit longer to become "ripe" speaking, its going to take a while for to get the price down on the equipment though. The printers I have research seem to go between $2-$3k and unsure beyond that whatever software etc, may be required. I also think its going to take a while for consumers to warm to the idea, if at all, "hey, I will make it myself instead" vs going out and buying a manufactured product instead.

ETA:

I think this will bring interest in building stuff to a whole new generation.

It seems to be easier then the older process of using a form block, and a hammer or press to form the metal around the block to make a mag at home the old fashioned way.

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Old January 15, 2013, 09:08 PM   #7
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The printing does not really mean that much (I think)

One can very easily make either item in a basic machine shop (I could do it at school pretty easily).

It is just people not understanding technology.
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Old January 15, 2013, 09:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
I'm looking for meaningful discussion on the issue. I know it has been around, but the technology is going to keep getting better.
Then provide more information on what the link is talking about and some of your input on the matter...
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Old January 15, 2013, 09:49 PM   #9
RockyMtnTactical
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I'm not much of an infowars guys myself, I just stumbled across this video.

Technology seems to be advancing with this stuff. I hope the govt doesn't try and put a stop to making your own guns, although it is not a stretch to think they would try.

Quote:
Im not the smartest when it comes to computers, but would love to know more about the process, and what (program and equipment wise) is involved, and how to set it up.
Me too.

I'm not really familiar with 3D printers, but I am sure they could refine the "resin" that is used to manufacture products.

Does anyone here work with any of this stuff with regard to firearms?

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Old January 15, 2013, 09:58 PM   #10
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I've had a few prototype parts made by suppliers on 3D printers and the technology and tolerances are getting better. That being said, while it very well may be possible to print a part with adequate strength and tolerances at some point (possibly today), it could also as easily be done on a CNC in a machine shop. Items like barrels and bolts I doubt would be able to be printed.

Possible does not always mean feasible or realistic. This is just another tactic to get uninformed people in an uproar.
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Old January 15, 2013, 10:16 PM   #11
teeroux
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Quote:
The printing does not really mean that much (I think)

One can very easily make either item in a basic machine shop (I could do it at school pretty easily).

It is just people not understanding technology.
Yes your are right someone could make anything in a shop. I could bend out some sheet metal and make a magazine on my bench. But a company with a few printers that made non firearm related products could turn out manufacturer numbers of magazines or lowers by a keystroke.
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Old January 15, 2013, 10:24 PM   #12
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Any Vo teck student can read a blue print.

As demonstrated during hearings on the Clinton assault ban in south Arkansas anyone with minimal mechanical skills can build a full auto weapon using materials purchased at the local ACE hardware store.

This was shown in El Dorado AR. A high school student produced one in under one hour.
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Old January 15, 2013, 10:35 PM   #13
RockyMtnTactical
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This was shown in El Dorado AR. A high school student produced one in under one hour.
Do you have a link to that?
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:33 AM   #14
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I think the printing technology will affect gun control. Remember, in primitive countries people have long made their own firearms by hand. I have seen films of 1911s being made, one piece at a time, by hand in Afghanistan and else where.
Videos are starting to go around showing how to make guns in a simple home shop. And, those with milling machines, lathes, etc. could make almost anything.
I made zip guns from junk piles in Chicago when I was a youngster.
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Old January 16, 2013, 10:19 AM   #15
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@ Rifleman: I seem to remember a story right before we invaded Afghanistan back in 2001 about how their biggest industry aside from Poppy Fields were making knock offs of old Russian Firearms like the AK-47 locally.
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:05 PM   #16
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Yes, I think it does, the way guns are currently regulated (with lowers being the evil part).

The disadvantage to handmade, small machine-shop, and 3d-printer-produced firearms is that certain parts won't be as durable, and, for uppers, guns won't be as accurate (ak-47s are notorious for loose tolerances, for instance).

Lower accuracy might have affected the Beltway snipers, but they could have simply switched to a bolt-action rifle. Whitman had an M1 but it was similarly not critical to the outcome (I can't find how many rounds he shot from which guns). None of this semi-auto high-cap paranoia materially affects either of those cases. For the rest of the rampage/spree killers... neither accuracy nor durability (to a point) makes much difference. They're short-range attacks.

It's precisely law-abiding citizens who want high-reliability, higher-accuracy firearms. They want the full advantages of modern commercial cnc manufacturing tech, modern heat treating tech, and sometimes cryo for barrels: for reliability, accuracy, durability. Criminals don't care so much. They're not putting hundreds of rounds (sometimes more) per month through their firearms.
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:40 PM   #17
RockyMtnTactical
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It's precisely law-abiding citizens who want high-reliability, higher-accuracy firearms. They want the full advantages of modern commercial cnc manufacturing tech, modern heat treating tech, and sometimes cryo for barrels: for reliability, accuracy, durability. Criminals don't care so much. They're not putting hundreds of rounds (sometimes more) per month through their firearms.
That was the point I was trying to make.

This is just one more easy way to make a gun that will work long enough for you to do your evil deed. What is the point of gun control if something like this is so easy to make?

Anyone can have an AR15 upper, LPK, buttstock shipped to their house. Print a 3D AR15 lower, add a 30 round mag... Heck, someone could do that in California right now and the authorities wouldn't likely know until you have another massacre on your hands.

A criminal or psycho like James Holmes could make his own AR15 and kill plenty of people with a home made gun... Heck, criminals sometimes don't even fire a shot. You could rape a woman or rob a bank with a crappy gun that never fires a shot.

Unfortunately, politicians do not realize that criminals will always get access to guns if they want. Heck, sometimes the US govt will just give criminals guns (fast and furious).
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Old January 17, 2013, 01:05 PM   #18
RockyMtnTactical
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These guys got one that lasted 80 rounds... this technology will just keep improving.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/01...ade-in-3d.html

"The lowers will now work reliably for 40-60 shots before failing. The highest round count so far has been over 80."
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Old January 27, 2013, 06:36 PM   #19
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Please Print Responsibly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPv9FwXM8s

$1k High Resolution 3D Printer: SeeMeCNC dotcom

ABS filament is a standard print material
Nylon variant filament available

Please print responsibly and observe local laws. 3D printing merely makes manufacturing what you want easier, not necessarily safer, unless it's a printed metal part (but only large companies can afford that). A plastic receiver might get you hurt (physically and legally). A manual mill will make a better gun part, but requires more skill. The technology allows a less-skilled person to print incredible stuff. Not just firearm parts. You don't have to know CNC control code.


The general print process is:
1. Generate or download a CAD MODEL, then export STL format
2. Slice STL to generate the G-Code (the code that runs a CNC machine )
3. Load the G-Code program you just sliced and press start on your printer


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nZl_oZSr9E


Last edited by PartDaddy; January 28, 2013 at 07:29 AM. Reason: add content
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Old January 27, 2013, 09:12 PM   #20
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Can't a plastic printed part be used as a plug to make a mold for investment casting?
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Old January 28, 2013, 07:41 AM   #21
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Yes. People are making all kinds of molded stuff like jewelry, fishing lures, figures, etc. I've even had a dentist want a machine for making teeth. A customer in Seattle area casts bronze RC boat propellers among other things.

An ABS part can be dipped briefly in acetone, which will smooth the surface even more. This is a great trick for preparing a part for a molding process or just improving the finish of a printed part.

I have multiple friends who want to test the printed magazine. While I made the first magazine with ABS, we stock a Nylon grade filament too. The Nylon will be plenty durable enough for long term use, but likely melt some if it gets too hot.
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Old January 28, 2013, 07:46 AM   #22
PartDaddy
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Printed Magazine, assembled using metal spring from existing magazine.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MagPrints_on_seemecnc_Jan2013.jpg (246.8 KB, 24 views)
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Old January 28, 2013, 12:36 PM   #23
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Very interesting technology. Seems it has come along some since I first looked into it. Now from what I understand, 3D printing came along as a quick way to make a model of a part. Allowing it to be tangible and not just on a computer screen. There now seem to be newer versions of this technology that could make things that can actually be used. But cost would be a factor to most of us. As of right now, they I do not think they can print a part that would need to of a certain rockwell hardness to perform any function inside a firearm or be a barrel. This seems to be far off yet and will not replace machine shops just yet. Now, I am not saying that it will one day not happen. But not today for the average person. Dollar for dollar, I believe a simple CNC machine is still the best machine for this purpose. Still within the average person's grasp and much more reliable.
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Old February 3, 2013, 02:34 PM   #24
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPWbcnS6nY0

I've moved AR 15 magazine 3D print video to this new location on my personal YouTube channel.
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Old February 3, 2013, 03:31 PM   #25
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3D printers are an advancement, but don't help our ban problems. You can make a zip gun from pipes and rubber bands right now and it would shoot in a pinch but if you have one assembled in your home without proper paperwork you're going to jail for a long time when caught.
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