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Old January 27, 2013, 02:33 PM   #26
Mystro
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Let me clarify.....the 40s&w can be purchased from many manufactures with 155 or 180 with 500+ftlbs of energy. That is about what my 10mm 180jhp reloads I used for whitetail. They worked great. The 10mm in the grand scheme is too limited when you need to find commercial loads like now. You can go into any store and find 40 like you can 9mm. Forget about what the 10mm uses to do when it was introduced because only boutique brand will load them that hot anymore. Your major ammo companies full power 10mm are like the Winchester 175jhp Silvertips. These are also a well proven hunting round. Look them up and you will see they are the goto round for most 10mm hunters. Finally, 10mm fps specs are a mostly a bunch of liars. I have choreographed just about every commercial 10mm round and just about all fall short (some really short) of their advertised specs. 40S&W have been much more accurate on their reported speed out of commercial handguns that you would actually own like a Sig or Glock and not a test barrel. This also closes the real world gap between the two calibers.
Yea I have hot 10mm reloads but seldom use them anymore simply because they don't kill any better and beats up the gun too much. My background with he 10mm goes waayy back. I was the first competitive IPSC shooter to adopt the 10mm and had a few very modded out limited race guns in the caliber. I have reloaded 10k+ 10mm rounds over the years and have used just about every bullet configuration in the caliber. I was using a 180 grain bullet at 1000fps to qualify for major power factor. This was in 1992. Today guess what bullet configuration the 40s&w top competitors are using????

To recap,....for the average guy that doesn't reload pet loads for the 10mm. The 40S&W will bring to the table what the 10mm was initially designed to do. Especially with today's better bonded bullets, they don't need to be driven that fast to get the job done in and out of the woods. I lived through the heydays of the 10mm craze with the Brenten, Deltas,etc. I had them all as well as a chronograph for IPSC purposes. It's power has become legendary over the years but I can tell you the real world performance specs never were as hot as they said it was commercially back in the day.
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Last edited by Mystro; January 27, 2013 at 02:54 PM.
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Old January 27, 2013, 02:51 PM   #27
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And two distinct advantages offset those: superior barrier penetration to either the 9mm or .45, especially auto glass, and being able to fit in a 9mm-sized frame so it can fit shooters who can't handle the girth of a .45
Few would base their decision on what handgun to buy on whether it would shoot trough a car window screen. How often do you think you would need to shoot trough a car window screen probably never. One incident here that i can remember a police officer had to shoot trough a car window screen killing the person in the car. He was using a 9mm. As for .40 people are starting to realise that it doesn't have much advantage over 9mm and is not worth the extra expense recoil and lower mag cap.
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Old January 27, 2013, 02:57 PM   #28
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If you need to shoot through barriers with the 9mm, Hornadys critical duty in 135jhp is just what you want. They also performed very well without shooting through barriers. There is quite a few reviews of them on YouTube with excellent results in ballistic gel. I like deeper penetration so they are just what I like in my 9mm guns. They also can make the 9mm a respectable woods gun if need be.
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Old January 27, 2013, 03:37 PM   #29
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Not sure I have noticed the upswing in .40 cal selling? But the whole calibre question is one big load of crap anyhow!

The two big reasons I have for owning pistols, main one, self defense, plus IDPA competition.

Take competition, the maximum round count is ten (for fair play to the poor unfortunate souls who live California) and other places, where 10 rounds is the max capacity allowed.

The accuracy of my 9mm rounds, phenomenal, contributed by my Glock19 4 gen; pistol, with an about 4 lb trigger weight. Six inch plates at 20m no problem.

In blue above, my 1&2 reasons just as important.

Self defense, pistol rounds are wimpy, at best, all of them. Accuracy (location) being the key, more accurate with less recoil, more rounds in a 9mm pistol!

Flooding a single attacker with rounds, gives you a better chance of surviving an attack.

Sorry to go off subject, I do tend to do that.
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Old January 27, 2013, 04:11 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mystro View Post
If you need to shoot through barriers with the 9mm, Hornadys critical duty in 135jhp is just what you want. They also performed very well without shooting through barriers. There is quite a few reviews of them on YouTube with excellent results in ballistic gel. I like deeper penetration so they are just what I like in my 9mm guns. They also can make the 9mm a respectable woods gun if need be.
Carjacking, for one example.

The Feds didn't overwhelmingly choose .40 due to enhanced barrier penetration based on one anecdotal incident, they researched it like crazy. After all that major research, practically all federal agencies still use .40 S&W or .357 Sig over 9mm
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Old January 27, 2013, 04:20 PM   #31
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My guess. People are taking advantage of the premium price used hi-cap guns are bringing to clean out the safe of guns that just don't get shot as often. And .40s cost more to shoot than a 9mm.

I sold my glock 22 a while back because it routinely got left at home in favor of other similar models, and the used market is very profitable. If you ever thought you were going to unload a .40 gathering dust, now is the time.
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Old January 27, 2013, 04:27 PM   #32
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The Feds didn't overwhelmingly choose .40 due to enhanced barrier penetration based on one anecdotal incident, they researched it like crazy
I wonder how many times the feds have to shoot trough barriers very few i would think. And civilians even less.
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Old January 27, 2013, 04:33 PM   #33
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Being a dealer who trades in new and used firearms daily, I've noticed no such trend.
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Old January 27, 2013, 05:30 PM   #34
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Before the gunophobes went all pollyanna about gun banning expecting it will result in a safer kumbaya-ness, the price of ammo was 10.99 to 13.99 for 9mm per 50 and 1-2 bucks more for 380, and 40 cal per 50 in my neck of the woods. Now the prices are 2-4 dollars higher if it is available (more available in 9mm here). As far as effectiveness of the rounds, the FBI and LEO's have pretty much settled those topics. While hitting the cpu or main hydraulics works well. I imagine 22 bird shot in the face from a little 22 single action revolver hitting the eyes is nothing to blink at! Like they say, "a well placed BB is better than a 50 cal miss."
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Old January 27, 2013, 06:49 PM   #35
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I carry a 9mm and hadn't even shot a 40 until a couple of months ago. A relative showed up with a matched set of XDM in 40 & 45 to shoot. After shooting both cals, I discovered I much prefered the 45 to the 40 in that particular platform. Shooting both side by side in the same brand/model was enlightening.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:18 PM   #36
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I've notice that we have 40 on the shelves around here.

I think that the current dogma is that modern 9mm is as effective as 40 and easier to shoot and cheaper. 40 is a touch snappy for some and 9 and 45 are easier to shoot for some.

I've had all three but ditched the 40 for the 9 and 45 in the semi realm.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:25 PM   #37
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My only reason for staying away from the .40 was because the price of ammo. 9mm is an effective round and also relatively cheap to keep a decent quantity on hand. Good thing I do with the current climate of bullet hoarding going on.


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Old January 27, 2013, 07:26 PM   #38
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Law enforcement have gone back to 9mm in my area. You can find lots of handguns on the shelf in .40 S&W around here. I've never owned one and can't say that I have a desire to.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:30 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by manta49 View Post
I wonder how many times the feds have to shoot trough barriers very few i would think. And civilians even less.
Then why is barrier penetration a key part of the FBI's protocol for handgun rounds?

Not "very few" at all for street law enforcement officers. Shootings on traffic stops are over half of all police shootings based on most stats.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:36 PM   #40
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The Feds didn't overwhelmingly choose .40 due to enhanced barrier penetration based on one anecdotal incident, they researched it like crazy. After all that major research, practically all federal agencies still use .40 S&W or .357 Sig over 9mm
You have to remember that these tests and findings were done back in the late 80's/early 90's. 9mm ammo has changed for the better since then.

Comparing today's 9mm ammo to those older tests the results would be different.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:39 PM   #41
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40 DeathRay

It is a fantasy that the "4" imparts some sort of extra effectiveness. The recoil is too sharp for little or no benefit over other calibers.

If I want to carry more cartridges, I go with 9x19 mm. If I want something larger, I choose 45 ACP. I go with hotter 44 Special if I want more power. I would go with 10 mm or 9x23 mm if I wanted more power in a semi-auto.

Last edited by tomrkba; January 27, 2013 at 07:48 PM.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:43 PM   #42
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As others have said people are realizing that the benefit the .40 gives over 9mm is marginal, but gives up a whole lot more than you gain. With 9mm you get faster followup shots, less felt recoil, and higher capacity. I honestly cant see myself ever buying a .40.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:44 PM   #43
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It is a phenomena on the internet gun forums. That must make it so!

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Old January 27, 2013, 09:52 PM   #44
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And so the 40 and 45 haven't benefited from the latest improvements in ammo also?
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Old January 27, 2013, 10:59 PM   #45
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And so the 40 and 45 haven't benefited from the latest improvements in ammo also?
Sure they have, but the 9mm has really benefited the most from modern ammunition designs and improvements. The .40 and .45 have the benefit of being a larger heavier round than the 9mm. In the past plain old 9mm FMJ was always looked at as a marginal performer. Within the past 10-20 years or so hollow point designs have really become that much better and more reliable making the 9mm shine with a good hollow point. No one is arguing that the 9mm out performs the .40 or .45 ballistic wise, but it is a pretty marginal difference where other factors come into play. Like recoil, capacity, easy of followup shots, price of ammo, and so on... Bottom line is most people can put more rounds down range, faster, and with tighter groups with a 9mm than a .40.
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Old January 27, 2013, 11:00 PM   #46
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I'm considering adding a caliber other than 9mm and it may be 45, not 40. However with the prices I may go for something even cheaper than 9mm.
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Old January 27, 2013, 11:04 PM   #47
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I'm considering adding a caliber other than 9mm and it may be 45, not 40. However with the prices I may go for something even cheaper than 9mm.
If you don't own a .22 yet it will be the best damn money you can spend. I enjoy shooting .22's just as much as 9mm and .45, and with .22's I can spend a couple hours at the range with a $20 box of 500 .22s, where I blow through $20 worth of 9mm in 20 minutes.
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Old January 27, 2013, 11:37 PM   #48
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^^^^Agreed^^^^^ Since I bought a .22 conversion for my AR I have really enjoyed it. Cheap shooting is a blast.
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Old January 28, 2013, 02:56 AM   #49
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Educated gun shoppers know that .40 S&W does not offer much over 9mm which is cheaper and has less recoil. So more and more are just buying either 9mm or .45 ACP.
That is like saying an educated person wouldn't ever consider living in Illinois. but then again, I have been to Illinois so..............

I guess I can rack this up with all of the other stuff I didn't know that I knew.........
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Old January 28, 2013, 09:12 AM   #50
Mystro
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Read some of Massad Ayoob books on calibers and stopping powere.....
"A large guy tried to shoot a police officer on a routine traffic stop. The officer drew his 40S&W loaded with 135jhp and fired one shot. The bad guy dropped and was clinically dead 10 seconds after the shot. The corroner called the police department and asked what explosive charge was inserted into the bullet that was used". The 40S&W brings more to the table than a 9mm. That's not to say a 9mm isnt effective but big and fast is better than smaller and fast.
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