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Old January 23, 2013, 06:47 PM   #26
jimbob86
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The UK is 93% the same ethnicity. These are pasteurized cultures.
Don't tell a Scot he is of the same ethnicity as an Englishman- he'll probably try to cut the scars on his knuckles off on your teeth......

..... and Londinistan is a "whole other country" ......
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Old January 23, 2013, 06:50 PM   #27
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Don't tell a Scot he is of the same ethnicity as an Englishman-
Been there done that. Could not tell what he said back; it might have been in English, it was very animated.
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Old January 23, 2013, 07:09 PM   #28
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IME, telling a Scot he is an Englishman is akin to calling an Alabama native a Yankee ......
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Old January 23, 2013, 07:35 PM   #29
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VODRyTnc#gid=0

kimio, see if that link takes you to a spreadsheet put together by the Guardian.UK newspaper of firearm homicides as reported by the UN (IIRC). Might be WHO. Apparently some nations do not provide said info.
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Old January 23, 2013, 10:43 PM   #30
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IME, telling a Scot he is an Englishman is akin to calling an Alabama native a Yankee ......
Wasn't Alabama settled largly be Scotsmen? That southern accent didn't come from the Injuns.

It can be hard to compare murder and suicide rates of different countries. I think that Great Britain lists only solved murders as "murders", until solved, it's a "suspicious death". I may be wrong though.
If two people get in a fight and one dies, is it a murder, manslaughter, or an accidental death?
Is dying as a result of doing something "suicidal" a suicide or an accidental death? In some cultures, suicide brings so much shame to the family that authorities will list it as an accidental death to spare the family of the stigma.

All I'm saying is take these statistics with a grain of salt.

They also try to tell us that the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates of any developed country. The truth is that hospitals in the US save more premature infants than any country in the world and if we fail to save one, it goes on record as an infant death, not a miscarriage.
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Old January 24, 2013, 09:00 AM   #31
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To me, statistics are for Statists. What difference does it make what happened to "the average guy" someplace else sometime in the past? I'm concerned with me and mine, in the here and now, and our futures.

It is irrelavent to me, personally, what the murder rate, or violent crime rate, or infant mortality rate is for Brittain, Australia, Mexico, Botswana, or whatever: I have been endowed by my Creator with the right to defend myself, and using the likelyhood of having to do so, either arguing for or against is stupid: it is my inalienable right, and not up for debate.

To put it in terms that the folks that do not understand that they have a right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness might understand:

I'll bet the victims of the narco-terrorists wished they had the right to have a gun on them when the gangs showed up to kidnap, torture and kill them. 'I ain't going out like that.'
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Old January 24, 2013, 02:44 PM   #32
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Is this an emotional response? Or are you just repeating some statistic you found on a gun blog or gun board? Your statement is wrong. Please show me some statistics to prove your case


The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States' 3.0 (over 40 times higher) and to Germany's 0.21 (3 times higher).
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Old January 24, 2013, 05:35 PM   #33
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What is unequivocally proven, however, is that violent crime rates (with murder included) go up dramatically when you take guns away.
Unequivocally? To prove something unequivocally you would need to find two environments where everything is the same. Everything. Except guns. That is clearly not possible so at best you could suggest violent crime may go up when guns are taken away.
And that is a hypothesis I would disagree with.

Quote:
We compare to the UK, Canada and Australia because we have somewhat similar societies, where the amount of gun control is the only real variable.
What?! You serious?
Guns the only real variable?!

Alabama Shooter had it right with:
Quote:
This whole concept of comparing everything we do to the UK, Australia or Canada really needs to stop.
As did Jimbob with:
Quote:
Why the continued fixation on "gun deaths"?
The interested parties of the US (for or against guns) need to really stop a) looking for simplistic single reasons for the incidence of gun violence and b) looking beyond its borders for those reasons, justifications and validations....

If the problem exists in the US, then you can be sure the reasons for and solutions to this will have originated in US society and will be the result of a myriad of factors that have been developing and evolving over decades.
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Last edited by Pond, James Pond; January 26, 2013 at 11:22 AM.
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Old January 24, 2013, 08:05 PM   #34
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Victory! I managed to bring an anti over to our side
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Old January 24, 2013, 08:27 PM   #35
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Whenever some grabber brings up Europe as a great example of peace and civility, I simply start rattling off their genocides, the last of which only ended in 1999 due to NATO intervention. Europe is hardly a great example of peace and morality. Niether is Asia or Africa or the Middle East. When you start including genocides then North America is actually a very good example of tolerance and peace.
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Old January 24, 2013, 09:06 PM   #36
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Oh you mean this?

Quote:
Box 6.1 The history of weapons collection in Kosovo
Organized weapons collection programmes have a long and difficult history in Kosovo.
Seizures date back at least to the Ottomans. In 1844, as part of a modernizing reform package,
the authorities in Istanbul started to strengthen their control over previously quite remotely
governed regions like Kosovo. These new measures also included attempts to disarm the local
population. As the modernizing reform was strongly resisted in conservative Kosovo throughout
the following decades, more guns were confiscated in successive campaigns to keep the population
under control. One of the reasons that the revolutionary so-called Young Turks received the
support of conservative Albanians in Kosovo, in their attempts to wrestle the power from the old
guard in power in Istanbul, was that they promised to respect the Albanians’ traditional rights,
including the right to carry arms.
In the first decade of the twentieth century, people in Kosovo again rebelled against the
Ottomans, this time because of new taxes. To quell the resistance, Ottoman troops were sent to
Pejë/Pe ́
c and Gjakovë/

Dakovica, where taxes were forcefully collected, the population regis
tered,
and arms confiscated. For example, in 1910, as many as 147,525 guns were allegedly confiscated
through harsh means. In the same move, all knives other than bread-knives were banned.
During the first half of the twentieth century, when Albanians were under Serb/Yugoslav rule,
the Serbian gendarmerie conducted what it called disarmament expeditions, but which in fact
amounted to ethnically-based systematic violence against the Albanians. In the early post-Second
World War period the federal Yugoslav police, under Minister of Interior Aleksander Rankovi ́
c,
attempted to collect arms forcibly from the population. In the winter of 1956, these house-to-
house seizure programmes led to beatings, torture, and even killings. According to Noel Malcolm,
‘so severe was the treatment of those who failed to hand over a gun that many Albanians would
prudently buy a weapon in order to have something to surrender’ (1998, pp. 320–21).
As the Yugoslav federation was dismembered in the 1990s, Milosevic continued the tradition
of violent
weapons collection. Kosovo Albanians were beaten, tortured, or wrongfully fined in
weapons seizure operations.
*Sarcasm*
Yeah, just ignore that because those European people are just too stupid and primitive.

ETA: Oh yeah, Kosovo, not on the list.
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Old January 24, 2013, 09:47 PM   #37
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AS, may I ask where you pulled that from?
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Old January 24, 2013, 10:13 PM   #38
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Guns cause suicide? Gun free Japan has twice the suicide rate of the US.
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Old January 25, 2013, 01:58 AM   #39
Alabama Shooter
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AS, may I ask where you pulled that from?
The United Nations.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...R03-Kosovo.pdf

They were looking at practical ways to disarm the natives and were trying to determine if it was worth it.

Know what else you should take a look at?

This:

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...Collection.pdf

A 2001 report heralding the success of disarmament programs in El Salvador, Mali and especially South Africa. If there is a smoking gun to idiocy there it is.

Now that the rapists (literally) are in charge of South Africa... lets just say that the US is in no danger of overtaking them in per capita.

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Old January 25, 2013, 10:14 AM   #40
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The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States' 3.0 (over 40 times higher) and to Germany's 0.21 (3 times higher).
OK, but what is the MURDER rate, manta?



I guess it's now considered a worse thing, in some places, to kill your attacker with a gun (that would be recorded as an "intentional homicide committed with a firearm", would it not?) than to be beaten to death by that attacker (that would be a "murder").



I'll keep my gun, thankee. You keep your moral superiority, such as it is.....
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Old January 25, 2013, 02:49 PM   #41
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Whenever some grabber brings up Europe as a great example of peace and civility, I simply start rattling off their genocides, the last of which only ended in 1999 due to NATO intervention. Europe is hardly a great example of peace and morality. Niether is Asia or Africa or the Middle East. When you start including genocides then( North America is actually a very good example of tolerance and peace)
Do you call the treatment of North American Indians as a good example of tolerance.
Quote. Unlike post-war Germany, North Americans refuse to acknowledge this genocide. Almost one and a quarter million Kanien'ke:haka (Mohawk) were killed off leaving us only a few thousand survivors.
There was a systematic plan to destroy most of the native people by outright murder by bounty hunters and land grabbers, disease through distributing small pox infested blankets, relocation, theft of children who were placed in concentration camps called "residential schools" and assimilation.


PS Some times people should look closer to home before slagging of other countries.

Mods can delete this if they want. I think its relevant as posters seem happy to have a go at other countries. And talk about how civilized America is.

Last edited by manta49; January 26, 2013 at 02:25 PM.
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Old January 25, 2013, 04:34 PM   #42
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My question still stands, manta......
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Old January 25, 2013, 05:14 PM   #43
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My question still stands, manta......
Murder through the world from the UNODC - Homicide rate per 100,000 population.


United States of America

15,241 Number.

5 Rate.


2009.

United Kingdom

724 Number.

1.2 Rate.

2009.

Quote:
This was brought up in a conversation, we were talking about how America compares to others like those in Europe and how America appears to have the highest fatality rate when it comes to firearms.
Original post above. I was talking about murders using firearms because that's what the original post was about.

Last edited by manta49; January 25, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
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Old January 26, 2013, 10:31 AM   #44
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North Americans do not want to reveal that there was and still is a systematic plan to destroy most of the native people by outright murder...
STILL IS? I did not get that memo but was fully aware of the earlier action and sentiments of the day.

Back on topic. What I do find interesting in regard to firearm deaths in the US is the limited number of actual homicides when compared to the number of firearms owned. I do factor out suicides as I believe those individuals would use any means available to them. Call it 15,000 homicides (+/-) annually in a nation of 330 million with who really knows how many firearms? Call it 200 million+/-.

Given the state of medical technology today, I'm sure more shooting victims or gunplay participants have been kept alive, reducing the number of actual deaths.

I do wonder what the number of GSWs annually is in the US? 4X the deaths? 5X? Dunno.
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Old January 26, 2013, 12:05 PM   #45
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Do you call the treatment of North American Indians as a good example of tolerance.
I'd say it is on par with the British treatment of the Irish during the Potato Famine. Ironically the famine triggered mass immigration to the US causing overcrowding in the eastern cities pushing more immigration Westward thereby increasing the pressures on the natives. I take about as much responsibility for what happened to the Native American as you should.

Quote:
North Americans do not want to reveal that there was and still is a systematic plan to destroy most of the native people by outright murder by bounty hunters and land grabbers, disease through distributing small pox infested blankets, relocation, theft of children who were placed in concentration camps called "residential schools" and assimilation.
Dog the Bounty Hunter actually claims he is Native American. I did not see him stealing any children or handing out blankets but who knows what happens off camera?

Quote:
Mods can delete this if they want. I think its relevant as posters seem happy to have a go at other countries. And talk about how civilized America is.


To tie this back into the topic, firearms sales were heavy restricted and mostly illegal to tribal Indians. When it came time for them to try to protect their rights under the law they were woefully unprepared to assert them and lost every war resulting in even more cruel treatment. This is an excellent argument against gun control and I am glad you brought it.

Who is to say what would have happened if the Indians had been well armed? I am betting history would have been quite different.
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Old January 26, 2013, 12:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama Shooter View Post
Who is to say what would have happened if the Indians had been well armed? I am betting history would have been quite different.
No one can say except maybe those in a parallel universe.

But I think there's broader implications. Certainly an armed native population would have put up a better resistance, and this is clear justification for RKBA.

But I suspect that in this case what would have occurred is the same result with much higher attrition and a protracted timeline. To raise public awareness would have required active press reporting, and at that time the organized press would have been (was) on the side of the government. No one was reporting the plight of the native population, so there was no social pressure on the government to change policy.

The whole of our rights must work together synergistically or they don't work at all. If we loose RKBA then eventually we loose the rest. History is a wheel, unfortunately.
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Old January 26, 2013, 02:50 PM   #47
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QUOTE]Dog the Bounty Hunter actually claims he is Native American. I did not see him stealing any children or handing out blankets but who knows what happens off camera?
[/QUOTE]Earlier post edited. That doesn't change the fact that the treatment of American Indians was similar to the treatment of the Jews in germany on a smaller scale.

Quote:
Niether is Asia or Africa or the Middle East. When you start including genocides then North America is actually a very good example of tolerance and peace
My response was to the above post on how bad those Europeans were and civilised the Americans were.

Quote:
I'd say it is on par with the British treatment of the Irish during the Potato Famine. Ironically the famine triggered mass immigration to the US causing overcrowding in the eastern cities pushing more immigration Westward thereby increasing the pressures on the natives. I take about as much responsibility for what happened to the Native American as you should.
I don't take any responsibility for the Irish potato famine as i was not around at the time to have any influence on what happened. No One expects Americans today to take responsibility for the treatment of the American Indians. Just to look at your own history before having a go at other countries . I don't buy the argument that more firearms mean less murders. What i do agree with is that more gun control in America will not make any difference in stopping mass shootings.
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Old January 27, 2013, 12:39 AM   #48
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What i do agree with is that more gun control in America will not make any difference in stopping mass shootings.
So why are you counseling us that registration and home inspections and other violations of our Rights are no big deal? These things will not solve the problems they are being proposed in reaction to, so why should we accept them? Where's the upside?
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Old January 27, 2013, 01:16 AM   #49
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Discuss this with a woman who was raped and the perp had no handgun. Debate loss for the liberals. Those are the kinds of statistics these conversations leave out. Also, those death rates include imminent self defense fatalities, which in my opinion is not a gun death at all. It's a Darwin one.
Lastly, if two drug dealers/violent crime offenders kill each other, do we really need to include those?
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Old January 27, 2013, 06:35 AM   #50
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So why are you counseling us that registration and home inspections and other violations of our Rights are no big deal? These things will not solve the problems they are being proposed in reaction to, so why should we accept them? Where's the upside
I am not i am saying it happens here and i have no problem with it. Its up to others if they have a problem with it or not.
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