The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 24, 2013, 05:20 PM   #76
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
How is it even possible to be an officer and not be a gun guy or gun gal? Isn't that the first requirement of the job? Sorry, I find it believable but still astounding. Would be like an infantry soldier who doesn't know how to use firearm.
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old January 24, 2013, 05:53 PM   #77
EODK9Trainer424
Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2013
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 18
Does this forum not have a quote button or do I just need to post more before I'll see one????


"How is it even possible to be an officer and not be a gun guy or gun gal? Isn't that the first requirement of the job? Sorry, I find it believable but still astounding. Would be like an infantry soldier who doesn't know how to use firearm."

Why should a LEO be a gun person? They should be proficient in the use of whatever firearms they are issued. For most it's the sidearm and a shotgun. But in my 30 plus years in LE I saw officers who could make the minimum standards at the range but that was it and most did not work to improve their abilities. But on the same note, the vast majority of officers will go their entire career and never fire their weapon and they know it. But I wanted to be ready so I became an expert shot and I loved the tactical training. When I became the K9 trainer I added much more tactical training to our training to include more firearm training. I would like to see all officers become experts in firearms but it will never happen..
__________________
"The More People I meet the More I Like My Dog"
EODK9Trainer424 is offline  
Old January 24, 2013, 06:19 PM   #78
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 854
"The More People I meet the More I Like My Dog"

I love that dog quote! We do need better training, we the blokes with CCWL in FL, permits some places. And LEOs, but it is all cost.

And speaking of $s, you do know the people who sign the checks, are not the people who draw and fire.

I remember the quote, the Chiefs buy the knives, the Indians have to carry them.

Last edited by Brit; January 26, 2013 at 08:51 AM.
Brit is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 11:04 PM   #79
USMC EOD
Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 60
In Virginia, veterans are not required to take a class for their concealed weapon permit. I was happy about the fact I did not have to take the class, but I know a lot of veterans that barely know which end of the gun the bullets come out of.
USMC EOD is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 11:50 PM   #80
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
It was the same in Florida, just needed a DD-214. I was very comfortable with the gun aspect of things, but I took a class because while I knew firearms, I did not know Florida carry and self-defense law.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 27, 2013, 12:09 AM   #81
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,349
Quote:
How is it even possible to be an officer and not be a gun guy or gun gal? Isn't that the first requirement of the job? Sorry, I find it believable but still astounding.
I recall reading that 70% of police academy applicants had never fired a gun. I don't recall if that was for a particular locale or across the board in the U.S.

Police officers often see guns as a tool of their trade, just like cars, flashlights, handcuffs, clipboards & pens. They aren't generally expert drivers or seriously into cars, they aren't all flashlight junkies, they don't typically mess with handcuffs as a hobby in their off time, and they don't always enjoy firearms either. They learn how to use the tools they are required to use to the level of proficiency that they are required to demonstrate and that's often as far as it goes--whatever the tool in question.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old January 27, 2013, 09:12 AM   #82
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
BGutzman... Sir

Using a firearm is probably the least applied skill in policing. Like most people a Police officers career, or life dont evolve around any one aspect of their job. People including the police tend to pay most attention to the duties, and skill's most used. The one piece of equipment officers use the most is an ink pen. The vast majority of officers go their entire career without ever firing a shot in the line of duty. Many even go their career without ever drawing their firearm. Thats not to say that the firearm should be ignored or neglected... Thats the one piece of equipment that must work perfectly every time, and the Officer must be proficient with it at all times.... Hence the firearm training shedual.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old January 28, 2013, 09:09 AM   #83
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 1,955
Having gone thru the 1996 MI CPl exercise...

at the end I asked the two LEO's, one the assistant deputy Sheriff and State patrol. The ADS replied to my question of how to handle a traffic stop, he responded with: "You sound have locked and emptied in your trunk!", i replied with "Why then did I just go thru this exercise of being granted a full CPL?"

He just glared at me. The State patrolman replied that I should, at first opportunity to inform the approaching officer and follow his directions.

This was before the 2000 CPL reform.
jrothWA is offline  
Old January 28, 2013, 07:35 PM   #84
LRChops
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2013
Location: Placer County
Posts: 125
No sense in carrying a gun for protection if it is unloaded. I would never ding an honest citizen for carrying a loaded gun. Now if you are a felon or restricted from having the gun, different story. No honest tax paying American should need a concealed carry permit, and they don't if I'm around! That is just chicken for a cop to jam someone who is truly interested in carrying fro protection.

Most Sheriff Deputies don't sweat the small stuff.
__________________
May God make smooth the path you follow!
LRChops is offline  
Old January 28, 2013, 08:23 PM   #85
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 2,485
Ever watch Cops, the tv show, and watch them try to clear a weapon they find? Most of the time they stand there fiddling with the thing untill an LEO who knows what hes doing walks over and clears it for them. I find this very unsettling. Also want to add, out of all the officers I have shot with at the range, maybe one or two were proficient with firearms. Just because they wear a badge and carry a gun does not necessarily mean they know how to use one.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old January 28, 2013, 08:40 PM   #86
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,714
Yes, some police officers aren't really interested in guns. Some are only marginally proficient with them. But as Glenn Dee pointed out, that's only a small part of the job.

And on the other hand, I've shot IPSC with some cops, I've been in classes at Gunsite and elsewhere with cops, had LEOs in classes I was helping teach and have practiced along side of some police officers. Those LEOs were interested and proficient; and some of them were training in part so that they could help train others in their agencies.

While some cops are more skillful and knowledgeable than others, denigrating their abilities categorically is inappropriate and uncalled for.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old January 28, 2013, 09:58 PM   #87
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 2,485
Just calling it as I see it... I don't deny there are plenty of LEO's out there who are very proficient with multiple firearm platforms. Heck one of the best shooters I know is a retired LEO who shoots his 1911's at 100 yards like it's a walk in the park. But I don't necessarily buy the it's only a small part of their job. Every aspect of my job I am required to be proficient in, if I wasn't I would have A. never been hired, or B. been fired by now.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old January 28, 2013, 10:28 PM   #88
LRChops
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2013
Location: Placer County
Posts: 125
There are many LEO's who are very proficient with guns. I am one of them. YOu would think all LEO's would be, but many are just not interested in guns. I know cops I work with who don't own but maybe one gun and that is usually a .38 revolver. Yet at work they carry the SIG 229, an M4, and a shotgun. But they have no interest.

All LEO's should be familiar with firearms and should be up to speed on modern tactics for LE and military. IF they are not they are doing a diservice to their partners, themselves, and the public. I expect all cops to be fluid with search techniques, building clearing, cover fire concepts, and all modern weapon handling techniques. Our firearms instruction is some of the best on the globe, yet there are some who still don't get a grasp!

I was at the range qualifiying with my M4 and we were shooting on the move. The little fat LEO next to me had no grace, did not groucho walk, and ran while he was bounding with the rifle swinging towards me. I stopped the line and corrected him and put him in CHECK! Unbelievable!

But then you have many guys I work with and a few gals who are fantastic and really get it!
__________________
May God make smooth the path you follow!
LRChops is offline  
Old January 28, 2013, 11:50 PM   #89
Hiker 1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 511
Years ago a cop friend told my mom to get a shotgun and load it with birdshot b/c she wouldn't have to aim. He also said her .25 would just "<hack> 'em off".

Nice guy, well meaning, but pretty much a walking cliche'.
Hiker 1 is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 12:29 AM   #90
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,714
Gone too far down hill.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13140 seconds with 9 queries