The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 23, 2013, 03:44 AM   #26
Dr Big Bird PhD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 778
Thank you 44 AMP
__________________
I told the new me,
"Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'"
But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back."
Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor
Dr Big Bird PhD is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 11:43 AM   #27
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Virtually all characteristics that are applied as to an assault rifle fall apart on details.

It need not be an intermediate caliber because other rifles in a "rifle caliber" (but not an intermediate cartridge) share all the characteristics. Or at least one did.

It need not be able to be fitted with a bayonet. The original Stg44 (MP44) did not, nor did the first AK-47s.

Some bolt action rifles were fitted with high capacity (more than 10 rounds) as far back as WWI but I suppose no one would all such a thing an assault rifle, even is they were used by real "storm troopers," who by then were unlikely to be wearing jackboots.

Any cartridge fired by a semi-automatic rifle has exactly the same destructive power as the same cartridge fired by a full-auto rifle.

Still, some trivialities have escaped precise definition. Is an M1 carbine an assault rifle? If not, what about an M2? True, it has no pistol grip in the current sense of the term but it is select fire. Is a .30 carbine cartridge an intermediate cartridge? Or does it fall beneath some defined floor? The M2 took a bayonet, if that helps, point-wise.

Then there's the Browning Automatic Rifle, which has everything but black plastic (neither did .30 carbines)--except the intermediate cartridge. Oh, and no pistol grip, either. It loses on points but because of the full power cartridge, you might call it an assaut and battery rifle.

Well, what about sub-machine guns. Might they be called sub-assault rifles? They pretty much have everything except the full-intermediate cartridge. Some even take bayonets but surprisingly few have black plastic stocks.

Finally, what about the current army version of the old, old, old M-16 (it's been used for well over 40 years)? Yes, it's select fire, sort of, only it isn't what you would call full-auto. Where does burst fire fit into this equation? We may have to rethink this whole business.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 12:08 PM   #28
Double J
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2007
Location: So. Illinois
Posts: 547
An assault rifle will be whatever Obama says it is. If it's like the last banned guns, it will include other things besides rifles. Just an auto sear is a machine gun according to the BATF&E, and in one instance a shoestring was enough to convict as being a machine gun. Our government isn't too bright. But they were elected, and that's who decides. Reid is going to let the Senate vote pretty soon and then we'll see what they want to take away.
Double J is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 02:02 PM   #29
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,823
The difference between conversational usage and...

legal definition is hugely important. The other side created a vague term "assault weapon", and deliberately uses it liberally, and interchangably with assault rifle to promote confusion. And on top of that, the other side isn't even sticking to their own definition of assault weapon.

We define assault rifle as select fire, detatchable magazine, intermediate cartridge. Everything else does not define an assault rifle. But in law, it can, and does define an assault weapon.

Remember that in US law, there is no defintion for assault rifle. Assault rifles are machine guns, and all of their other features are of no consideration. Having a bayonet, or not makes NO difference as to if a rifle is an assault rifle. But it might be the deciding factor as to if the rifle is, or is not an assault weapon, as the term in defined, in law. (forget about how the media is defining the term, that changes everything they think they see an advantage to using a new term, or including something new in the current usage term. And forget about using google, wiki, or some other modern "dictionary" for a proper defintion. You won't find it. What you will find is the definition "in popular use", which can, and ofen is wrong.)

Quote:
Is an M1 carbine an assault rifle? If not, what about an M2? True, it has no pistol grip in the current sense of the term but it is select fire. Is a .30 carbine cartridge an intermediate cartridge? Or does it fall beneath some defined floor?
Using our definition of assault rifle, no the M1 carbing is not an assault rifle (not select fire). The M2 is an assault rifle, because it is select fire, and uses a round more powerful than the standard WWII pistol rounds (although the .30 carbine round is on the low end of the range, being only slightly more powerful than the standard pistol rounds of the era)

The presence or absence of a pistol grip, bayonet lug, etc., makes no difference in defining assault rifle. The M1 carbine, with no pistol grip, but with a bayonet lug was not an assault weapon under the 94AWB (which required 2 or more features from the "ban" list. The M1 paratrooper carbine, with its folding stock, pistol grip and bayonet lug did meet the requirements, and was an assault weapon under the law. The new New York law makes the original M1 carbine an assault weapon (only one feature from the ban list is required). Plus the New York law makes the mags illegal, all by themselves.

Quote:
Then there's the Browning Automatic Rifle, which has everything but black plastic (neither did .30 carbines)--except the intermediate cartridge. Oh, and no pistol grip, either. It loses on points but because of the full power cartridge, you might call it an assaut and battery rifle.
The BAR is almost in a class by itself. Neither fish nor fowl, but not good red meat, either, so to speak. It is an automatic rifle. NOT an assault rifle, because it fires a full power cartridge (.30-06). again, black plastic and pistol grips have nothing to do with it. They only count when you are talking about assault weapons (which are semi auto only), and the BAR misses on that count as well. GI BARs are either select fire (some models) or full auto only (most models).

Some people use the term "battle rifle" for arms that are select fire, but fire full power rounds. The M14, the G3, and the FAL are examples of this.
Other people use "battle rifle" to include ALL military rifles firing full power rounds, bolt action, semi auto, and select fire.

Quote:
Well, what about sub-machine guns. Might they be called sub-assault rifles? They pretty much have everything except the full-intermediate cartridge. Some even take bayonets but surprisingly few have black plastic stocks.
Sub machine guns are not "sub assault rifles". Again, by the definition of select fire AND intermediate power cartridge. Submachineguns fire standard pistol ammo, NOT an intermediate power round. Also disqualified are all those models which are not selective fire. If it is full auto only, it cannot be an assault rifle. It must be something else.

Quote:
Finally, what about the current army version of the old, old, old M-16 (it's been used for well over 40 years)? Yes, it's select fire, sort of, only it isn't what you would call full-auto. Where does burst fire fit into this equation? We may have to rethink this whole business.
That decision has already been made, thanks to the US govt. Burst fire IS full auto fire. Therefore, legally a machinegun. Think of burst fire as full auto "lite". IT is full auto, just not continous full auto fire.

Black stocks, pistol grips, folding stocks, thumbhole stocks, bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, etc., do NOT figure in the definition of assault rifle. They do play a part in the definition of a semi auto as an assault weapon, under current laws.

The media and all the talking heads play fast and loose with the terms, purposely so, to create an specific impression, and an attitude. Look at what they put in law (or try to), THAT is what really matters.

We don't do ourselves any good confusing the terms and mixing them together, that's what the other side wants us to do.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 02:13 PM   #30
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
So an assault rifle has to be full auto but a BAR, which is full auto (or select fire), is not an assault rifle because it uses a full-power cartridge, making it merely an automatic rifle. No wonder people get confused.

Say, who was it who said what an assault rifle is? Was it the Lady of the Lake? John Browning? Josef Nickl? Or Mikhail Kalashnikov? I have no idea who designed the StuG 44.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 04:08 PM   #31
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,501
I would say the BAR would be classified as a "battle rifle" because it is automatic and fires a full sized service round.

Like the FN-FAL, G-3, M-14, etc.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 04:27 PM   #32
wogpotter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2004
Posts: 3,417
Quote:
Say, who was it who said what an assault rifle is?
Originally the engineering team at Haenel when trying to get herr Hitler to accept a "new type" or rifle. He didn't like sub machine guns, or as the Germans call them "machine pistols".

They re-branded the existing product as a "StG 44" from an earlier "MP 43" (maschine pistol, model of '43) to a "Sturmgewehr 44", literally "storm" (or assault) rifle (model of 1944).

You see its always been a political boondoggle, right from initial conception.
__________________
Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”?

Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”
wogpotter is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 04:55 PM   #33
oldgunsmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2013
Posts: 278
Maybe

Maybe some of them remember being involved in assault operations in the military when the majority involved had their rifles on semi-auto and only a select few were allowed to have it on full (Squad AR men). A semi-auto AR 15 is not only a perfectly capable assault weapon, semi-auto is by far the most commonly used assault mode in full auto versions and has been since it was introduced. To be offended by someone referring to it as an assault rifle is pretty lame. Whoever calls it that has a pretty good point.
oldgunsmith is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 05:06 PM   #34
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,501
But the AR-15 isn't an assualt rifle....some variants look like an M-4A1, but the AR-15 doesn't have a selector switch.

Heck, the only fella in my squad who didn't have an automatic weapon was the guy carrying full sized M-16 in the PDM role.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."

Last edited by SPEMack618; January 23, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 24, 2013, 10:54 AM   #35
Double J
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2007
Location: So. Illinois
Posts: 547
Now we must add any gun with a detachable magazine to the "assault" theme. Such as in Feinstein's version of gun bans going up now(Fox News).
Double J is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 03:01 AM   #36
freedash22
Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2012
Posts: 49
And More

Sturmgewehr has made a pretty good point in his video in youtube about the AWB of 2013. According to Feinstein, all weapons which are semi-auto versions of their full-auto military counterparts should now be labelled as an assault weapon.

Just like Sturmgewehr said, this can be pretty alarming because this would mean some common pistols, with full auto equivalents will now be termed assault weapons. Examples would be CZ75 (CZ75 Automatic), G17 (G18), Beretta 92 (93R), Uzi, TMP, Scorpions and others.
freedash22 is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 07:18 PM   #37
Guv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Location: South Texas
Posts: 1,083
M70 FeatherWeight in .338 Win Mag might qualify!
Guv is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 07:32 PM   #38
Xaak
Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Location: NYC, L.A. and Va
Posts: 62
Assault Weapon: A history

Compared to the early muskets with smoothbore and ball and powder, the Spencer and Henry rifles had to be assault weapons. The Colt revolver no doubt became the pinnacle of assault handhelds weapons. As we go through history we see that we constantly upgrade the firearms, and now a Spencer or a Colt revolver are seen as tame and worthy firearms.

As time went on the Browning Hi Power semi-auto and the 12 gauge pump shotgun were assault weapons. Remember, the police started to carry them?

And now, today, the police, not the military, have AR-15 (M4) full auto assault weapons and high cap semi-auto pistols. Why? Because they are the best evaluators of what it takes to defend one self properly in any situation.

With that kind of endorsement, it is also why every law abiding citizen should be able to have the same defensive measures at their disposal. We already have an assault weapon ban. All auto firearms are an extra tax, more difficult purchase. If it comes down to terminology, we only have to see what side of the debate the person is on to hear sporting rifle or assault weapon used. Oh, and we have assault clips (magazines actually, it's just those that don't understand use whatever they can)
__________________
The liberties of our country, the freedoms of our civil Constitution are worth defending at all hazards; it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. ~ Samuel Adams ~
Xaak is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 11:30 PM   #39
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,823
Quote:

Originally the engineering team at Haenel when trying to get herr Hitler to accept a "new type" or rifle. He didn't like sub machine guns, or as the Germans call them "machine pistols".

They re-branded the existing product as a "StG 44" from an earlier "MP 43" (maschine pistol, model of '43) to a "Sturmgewehr 44", literally "storm" (or assault) rifle (model of 1944).

You see its always been a political boondoggle, right from initial conception
I have slightly different information about how the name came about. Sometime after late 40 (not sure the precise date) an order was issued suspending further developement of rifles, as a waste of resources. (Ibelieve that the FG 42 was exempted). The Germans were winning, and saw developement of new rifles as unneeded. Developement of the next generation of submachineguns (MP in German) was permitted.

This is why the MP43 and MP44 were so designated, to get around the restriction on rifle development. When, at a conference of officers from the Eastern Front, Hitler asked what they needed or wanted, several told him "more of the new rifles!". Hitler was unaware of any "new rifles".

Small numbers of the MP43/44s were being "field tested" on the Eastern Front.

Reportedly, Hitler was furious, at first, because the order forbidding new rifles had been flouted, but after having the gun demonstrated for him, he became enthusiastic, and proclaimed that it was now the Sturmgewehr. And so the designation was changed to Stg 44.

Hitler named the Assault Rifle.

(I cannot, of course personally verify the validity of the story, but I have seen it, with minor variations in published accounts written by people who were in positions to know.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 02:17 AM   #40
Gunnut17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 394
I have a very simple definition, if it fires a rifle cartridge, and is fully automatic, then it is an assault rifle.
__________________
________(====()_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-,
I_iiiii__/'''''''''[{]''''''''{_)_)_)_)_)_}========

"|Pistol calibers| all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Gunnut17 is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 11:32 PM   #41
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,823
That would be a machine gun. Under US law.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 06:26 AM   #42
PatientWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Location: NC
Posts: 397
What makes a firearm an assault weapon?

The person carrying it and how they decide to use (or mis-use) it. The same thing that makes a baseball bat or a pitchfork an assault weapon.
PatientWolf is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 06:44 AM   #43
thedudeabides
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2012
Posts: 1,030
A stainless steel 1911 with seven round magazines, 3-dot sights, and rosewood grips is a handgun.

A black 1911 with eight round magazines, VZ textured grips, threaded barrel, night sights, ambi safety, and surefire light is an automatic assault weapon. JUST LIKE THE SOLDIERS HAVE!!!1one
thedudeabides is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 12:01 PM   #44
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
That would be a machine gun. Under US law.
And that is the funny thing about U.S. law, specifically the NFA, it was written and enacted a good eight years before the concept of an assualt rifle was dreamed up, atleast the current definition of firing an intermediate power cartridge.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 02:24 PM   #45
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,823
Quote:
And that is the funny thing about U.S. law, specifically the NFA, it was written and enacted a good eight years before the concept of an assualt rifle was dreamed up, atleast the current definition of firing an intermediate power cartridge.
Yep!

The NFA cares nothing for the power level of the round fired (until you get to "destructive devices"). If it goes full auto (including only burst fire) then it is a machine gun. Doesn't matter if we class it as a submachine gun, assault rifle, belt fed, light, medium, or heavy, all the NFA sees is a machine gun. They don't care if it is belt or box magazine fed, either.

The fact that an assault rifle has a select fire capability makes it a machine gun, and all machine gun laws apply. We use that feature, along with the intermediate power round to classify it as an assault rifle, as opposed to a light machine gun or submachinegun.

Let's say you have a pickup truck. There are certain features that make it a pickup truck. And its legally registered as a pickup truck.

Chrome wheels, extended mirrors, brush guards and roll bars dont' make it a pickup truck. 4WD doesn't make it a pickup truck. But they are features a lot of pickup trucks have.

Now, tell me you would be happy with an extra tax/special registration because your truck had foglights AND custom wheels. (combination of "evil" features) and if you didn't comply you would be breaking the law.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 04:10 PM   #46
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,166
M1888 Springfield-with rod bayonet. It's what I carried up San Juan Hill in 1898.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old March 3, 2013, 04:30 PM   #47
oldgunsmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2013
Posts: 278
Assault Rifle?

I remember a Colt advertisement that had a photo of an M-16 and an AR-15 "sporting rifle" side by side. The caption read "Which is which? Even our experts can't tell the difference without a closer look". Not all are used in an assault on full auto. If you're not a designated AR man, yours is supposed to be on semi-auto. The confusion is understandable.
oldgunsmith is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 02:56 AM   #48
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
Try explaining to a liberal that the AR in AR-15 doesn't stand for assault rifle and see how far you get. Dang you armalite!
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help
Boomer58cal is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 10:32 AM   #49
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,501
In exasperation one day, I posted that the "AR" in AR-15, AR-10, AR-180 doesn't stand for either or assualt rifle or automatic rifle. That it, indeed, stand for Armalite Rifle on Twitter. I was pleasently surprised at the positive reaction it generated.

Ony of my more anti-gun Fraternity Brothers was amazed at that factoid.

Didn't change his mind of 30-rdn mags, but atleast got him thinking about the rifle itself.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Big Sister: "You should be sponsored by Allen"
Me: "If you can't shoot good, at least look good walking to the firing line."
Big Sister: "Can you not afford a Pelican? Then buy an Allen gun bag."
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old March 5, 2013, 01:16 AM   #50
Mike1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 120
Simple answer: A Politician
Mike1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14328 seconds with 9 queries