Assault weapon banned failed in 1997, North Hollywood shootout

9mm · January 21, 2013, 02:48 AM

I was just thinking and I rememberd. The NHS was in 1997, The AWB was in 1994>2004... That means somehow they had AK'S and their other "big round magazines" during this ban.

I also want to know how did the cops go to the gun shop and get AR's when they were banned at this time..

JimDandy · January 21, 2013, 03:03 AM

Well there's still an AWB in California. That's why you'll see CA Compliant version of weapons. Assuming they really did go to the gun shop and get ARs, and that wasn't an urban legend.

NWPilgrim · January 21, 2013, 04:35 AM

I assume you are asking this as a rhetorical question, but I'll answer anyway to vent.

As we know, the 1994 AWB was sloppy since they were not really banning true assault weapons and would then have a clear definition, but some made up collection of features they called assault weapon, such as a bayonet or attachment point, flash hider, new 30 rd mag, etc.

So manufactures removed the bayonet lug and flash hider, installed a muzzle brake and called it a Sporter. Models of collapsible stocks (how evil!!) were made into fixed ones to sell after the ban. AKs were further restricted if they had less than 10 parts made in the US, so US parts kits came out.10+ rd mags were grandfathered so all the old USGI mags in surplus came out of the wood work, plus there happened to be cargo containers full of AK mags. I seem to recall AK mags were under $5/ea, maybe $3/ea in bulk, and Ar mags around $10/ea or less before the ban. Huge surplus market.

Being CRIMINALS the NHS shooters did not care much for the laws about gun restrictions since they planned to rob a bank and lay down a wall of lead on anyone who tried to stop them.

As far as I know NO ONE has ever been able to show that gun bans of any sort reduce violent crime. And apparently in Britain, neither are effective bans on knives, swords, bats, hair pins, pens or pencils, or any other object used for self defense. ans only disarm the law-abiding and enale the criminal or tyrant to have the advantage.

Finally, from what I have read of the shootout, the police did in fact go to a local gun shop and get AR-15s but SWAT arrived with their own rifles before the civilian ones were deployed.

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Quote:

SWAT eventually arrived with rifles powerful enough to penetrate the body armor. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.

jason_iowa · January 21, 2013, 04:46 AM

Columbine shooting happened under last awb too. We already know that laws don't stop crime. If they did we would have no crime.

teeroux · January 21, 2013, 04:52 AM

Quote:

I was just thinking and I rememberd. The NHS was in 1997, The AWB was in 1994>2004... That means somehow they had AK'S and their other "big round magazines" during this ban.

I'll one up you and just mention its also a failure of the gun control act. Those AK's were smithed into full auto machine guns. There was no single pull of the trigger going on which likely is the reason the only 2 deaths out of the whole ordeal was the 2 dirtbags. They shot up a whole lot of crap and wounded several with spray and pray but didn't kill anyone.

Webleymkv · January 21, 2013, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:
I was just thinking and I rememberd. The NHS was in 1997, The AWB was in 1994>2004... That means somehow they had AK'S and their other "big round magazines" during this ban.

I'll one up you and just mention its also a failure of the gun control act. Those AK's were smithed into full auto machine guns. There was no single pull of the trigger going on which likely is the reason the only 2 deaths out of the whole ordeal was the 2 dirtbags. They shot up a whole lot of crap and wounded several with spray and pray but didn't kill anyone.

I believe you're thinking of the National Firearms Act rather than the Gun Control Act as it was the former that restricted fully automatic weapons to the point of a de-facto ban. You bring up a good point, however, in that even when certain weapons are not commonly avaialable, there is still nothing to stop criminals from illegally fabricating them.

**Glenn E. Meyer** · January 21, 2013, 12:09 PM

The gun shop guns were not used in the NHS by officers. They went to get them but didn't use them in the fight. IIRC, it had moved on by then.

Alabama Shooter · January 21, 2013, 12:12 PM

Quote:

You bring up a good point, however, in that even when certain weapons are not commonly available, there is still nothing to stop criminals from illegally fabricating them.

True but it is such a rarity. There is a much greater chance of hitting the lottery than seeing one of those. As I have pointed out before full auto weapons are horrible for use in committing crimes, mass shootings or most other events that antis think they would be useful. In truth they have limited but useful application on the battlefield. In the NHS they may have saved lives.

**Tom Servo** · January 21, 2013, 02:35 PM

Fun rebuttal: a decent bolt-action rifle in the right hands could have ended that fight quickly.

The main problem on the ground was that patrolmen were armed with pistols and shotguns. They were logistically unprepared for opponents armed with rifles. Doctrine and loadout have changed since then.

North Hollywood really wasn't about "assault" rifles. The bad guys used illegally modified hardware, and the good guys didn't have the right hardware for long-distance confrontations.

Alabama Shooter · January 21, 2013, 02:43 PM

Quote:

North Hollywood really wasn't about "assault" rifles. The bad guys used illegally modified hardware, and the good guys didn't have the right hardware for long-distance confrontations.

Ultra rare occurrences like this are why I justify a high powered rifle trunk gun. In this case being .30-06. Two shots at range would have ended the whole thing.

Still they were assault rifles, even if illegally created ones.

Apom · January 22, 2013, 03:59 AM

The real question you should be asking.. why are there no mass shootings in schools, malls, or movie theaters with actual machine guns? The answer is not only surprising, but also a stab against the firearms community. But we can easily cover it up with finger pointing, assumptions, and disbelief.

NWPilgrim · January 22, 2013, 05:43 AM

I don't know maybe they know full auto is not effective for hitting a target. I see no connection with this and your supposed indictment of the firearms community from which you separate yourself. Are you saying you don't own firearms or everyone else is to blame but not you?

The closest event to this is perhaps the North Hollywood bank robbery and with the amount of ammo they expended on full auto they did not get a very good hit to rounds fired ratio.

Since you support universal background checks maybe you can explain why those have never stopped a mass shooting.

Ben Towe · January 22, 2013, 07:11 AM

Quote:

The real question you should be asking.. why are there no mass shootings in schools, malls, or movie theaters with actual machine guns? The answer is not only surprising, but also a stab against the firearms community. But we can easily cover it up with finger pointing, assumptions, and disbelief.

Come again? For starters, you can't hit a durn thing with one. Have you ever had the pleasure of firing one? Tons of fun, that's about it. A friend of mine has a (completely legal) little .22 machine gun. I'm a very big, very strong man, and it took a lot of strength to maintain control of it, and accuracy was less than stellar, to say the least. I can imagine a full auto AK would be a real handful, and seriously hard to hit anything at all with.

Double Naught Spy · January 22, 2013, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Come again? For starters, you can't hit a durn thing with one. Have you ever had the pleasure of firing one? Tons of fun, that's about it.

The HK91 in full auto is a whole lot to handle, but the HK MP5 isn't a problem to control with a bit of practice. Accuracy may be less than stellar, but more than sufficient for combat. Carlos Hathcock used an M2 .50 BMG for sniping.

Not all full auto guns handle the same way and a little training goes a long way to learning to use them effectively.

As for the AWB or NFA failing as indicated by the North Hollywood incident, then every law broken is a failure too? No.

Webleymkv · January 22, 2013, 12:47 PM

Quote:

The real question you should be asking.. why are there no mass shootings in schools, malls, or movie theaters with actual machine guns? The answer is not only surprising, but also a stab against the firearms community. But we can easily cover it up with finger pointing, assumptions, and disbelief.

Well why don't you elighten all of us then.

Baba Louie · January 22, 2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

The real question you should be asking.. why are there no mass shootings in schools, malls, or movie theaters with actual machine guns? The answer is not only surprising, but also a stab against the firearms community. But we can easily cover it up with finger pointing, assumptions, and disbelief.

Assuming you are discussing legal machine guns? Extensive background checks, exorbitant prices, limited quantites as a result of govt control (Shall not be infringed), signs saying NO GUNS ALLOWED... those sorta things as a stab against? Or what exactly are you inferring? If I may be so bold as to ask.

**Glenn E. Meyer** · January 22, 2013, 04:31 PM

Yep - Apom - please clarify your statement. Others - wait for it, wait for it.

Webleymkv · January 23, 2013, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Yep - Apom - please clarify your statement. Others - wait for it, wait for it.

I'm beginning to think that we're going to be in for a rather long wait.

January 21, 2013, 02:48 AM	#1
9mm Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Land of the Free Posts: 2,645	Assault weapon banned failed in 1997, North Hollywood shootout I was just thinking and I rememberd. The NHS was in 1997, The AWB was in 1994>2004... That means somehow they had AK'S and their other "big round magazines" during this ban. I also want to know how did the cops go to the gun shop and get AR's when they were banned at this time.. __________________ SHTF vs TEOTWAWKI you ask? SHTF, just some crap on the ceiling and walls, TEOTWAWKI end of the world as we know it. Orignally made by 9mm/®™©

January 21, 2013, 12:09 PM	#7
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 13,131	The gun shop guns were not used in the NHS by officers. They went to get them but didn't use them in the fight. IIRC, it had moved on by then. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm Being an Academic Shooter http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm Being an Active Shooter

January 21, 2013, 02:35 PM	#9
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalach Posts: 7,098	Fun rebuttal: a decent bolt-action rifle in the right hands could have ended that fight quickly. The main problem on the ground was that patrolmen were armed with pistols and shotguns. They were logistically unprepared for opponents armed with rifles. Doctrine and loadout have changed since then. North Hollywood really wasn't about "assault" rifles. The bad guys used illegally modified hardware, and the good guys didn't have the right hardware for long-distance confrontations. __________________ In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. --Albert Camus

January 22, 2013, 03:59 AM	#11
Apom Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2007 Posts: 161	The real question you should be asking.. why are there no mass shootings in schools, malls, or movie theaters with actual machine guns? The answer is not only surprising, but also a stab against the firearms community. But we can easily cover it up with finger pointing, assumptions, and disbelief. __________________ Criminals and the mentally ill should NOT own firearms. Background check everyone.

January 22, 2013, 04:31 PM	#17
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 13,131	Yep - Apom - please clarify your statement. Others - wait for it, wait for it. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm Being an Academic Shooter http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm Being an Active Shooter

January 21, 2013, 03:03 AM	#2
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 1,497	Well there's still an AWB in California. That's why you'll see CA Compliant version of weapons. Assuming they really did go to the gun shop and get ARs, and that wasn't an urban legend.

January 21, 2013, 04:46 AM	#4
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 569	Columbine shooting happened under last awb too. We already know that laws don't stop crime. If they did we would have no crime.

January 22, 2013, 05:43 AM	#12
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,835	I don't know maybe they know full auto is not effective for hitting a target. I see no connection with this and your supposed indictment of the firearms community from which you separate yourself. Are you saying you don't own firearms or everyone else is to blame but not you? The closest event to this is perhaps the North Hollywood bank robbery and with the amount of ammo they expended on full auto they did not get a very good hit to rounds fired ratio. Since you support universal background checks maybe you can explain why those have never stopped a mass shooting.