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Old March 23, 2012, 10:31 AM   #1
gdcpony
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257 Roberts Modern Data

I have asked similar before, but now I am about to load my test loads this weekend and hate going in blind.

Here is the loading data from Hodgdon's website for my selected powder and bullet for .257Roberts. Notice that it is a conservative load meant to be safe for older Mausers. I am loading for a modern action and with +P Brass. I am looking for loads to make the most of the round's capabilities. I would like to see if 3200fps (maybe 3250?) is attainable with this bullet/powder for a longer range predator/deer load.

Bullet wt/ type- 100 GR. SPR SPBT
Powder - Hodgdon H414
Caliber- .257"
OAL- 2.770"
Starting load/ Velocity/Pressure- 44.0/2919/33,600 CUP
Max Load/ Velocity/ Pressure- 45.0/3098/44,500 CUP

I know precision will dictate the final load, but I would like a good modern maximum. I want to load for the strongest load that holds a decent group. If I can go up .1gr and give up just .1" in group then I would if I can put a bit (worthwhile and noticeable via chrony) more energy on target.

Just looking for input.
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Old March 23, 2012, 11:55 AM   #2
WIL TERRY
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THE SPEER NUMBER FOURTEEN LOADING MANUAL has five pages of 257ROBERTS+P loading data including fourteen propellents pushing 100GR .257" projectiles.
It is T-TOTALLY up to YOU to develope any loads beyond that and yours noted so far are in dream land as far as labortory developed loading data is concerned.
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Old March 23, 2012, 06:11 PM   #3
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I don't think they are that far off into dreamland. 100fps with about 5k in pressure (50k being max reasonable for the case). I am planning to work up by tenths measuring head expansion barring further word. If my math is right, should be able to get another 1.5 grains of powder. I will see.
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Old March 23, 2012, 08:20 PM   #4
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If your rifle has a 22" barrel subtract 120-150FPS, rarely will your rifle develope what the book says because the test firearm usually has a longer barrel. Even a 25/06 which will hold more powder than the standard 257 roberts won't make it to 3250FPS without pushing it to pressure levels that may produce short case life. I've never owned a Roberts but I think they would be a good caliber for light big game. My son has a 25/06 that he rarely shoots, he prefers his 280Rem or a 30/06 for hunting.. FWIW William
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Old March 23, 2012, 09:04 PM   #5
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.257 is a great round and very efficient on deer and varmits. I've pushed 75 gr. V-max bullets to 3500 fps in mine. That velocity was over a chronograph too. You neck shoot a deer with that load and it will never move out of it's tracks. You should be able to get effective velocity out of a 100 gr. bullet as well.
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Old March 24, 2012, 04:09 AM   #6
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I have a 257RAI VZ24 26" barrel that will do 3900fps 75 gr... but the primer pockets get loose and the barrel will Copper foul quickly.

3500 fps is my speed limit for Moly coated bullets, and that also keeps my primer pockets tight.

The 6mmRem is SAAMI registered at 65,000 psi and the 8x57mm is SAAMI registered at 35,000 psi, but they both use the same kind of brass made with the same kind of tooling and are both going to get lose primer pockets at 70 ~ 72 kpsi in one shot and I will make hunting load at 67 kpsi. This is the 1889 7.65x53mm Mauser case head made with a large Boxer primer pocket.

The 257 Roberts is somewhere in between the two that are the same

The VZ24 will change the rifle geometry [read plastic deformation of bolt body and bolt abutments ]at 100 kpsi with the 300 H&H magnum case head. But that is much more bolt thrust than me working up to the threshold of long brass life for the Mauser case heads used in the Roberts.
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Old March 24, 2012, 08:45 AM   #7
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I am using a 98 action with a 26" sporting weight barrel. Action and bolt have been trued up, lugs and crown done and a trigger job. I recently bedded it in Devcon in a Boyds Thumbhole Stock. With the original stock and no bedding or scope it managed 1.5" off a bench. Can't wait to see what it does now as it is coming back from having a scope mounted on Monday. It was supposed to be yesterday, but it wasn't ready, and I never rush a good gunsmith.

So I will load up in anticipation! I am thinking of finding the max by loading a couple rounds each from 45-47 in .1 increments and checking for expansion. I can always stop and pull some bullets and back off a couple tenths once I find the limit. Then with my Chrony I can let you guys know how fast it was when I reached to limit. I still hope for 3200 as the rifle/case is good for 50+k and the listed load stops 5k lower and only about 100fps off from it.

I have never gone outside of the books and manuals before so the nerves will be on. Hopefully, I will hopefully get to try an Ackley version next year. I have a spare 98 that is coming back with my rifle drilled, turned, and trued up. I bet I can get 3200 then! (and re-barrel my old one?)
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Old March 24, 2012, 09:15 AM   #8
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My main hunting rifle is a 257 Roberts in a Model 70 Featherweight. I load somewhere in the middle of what most reloading manuals say.

Never had a problem with accuracy and never had to shoot a critter twice.

I just don't see the need for hiper velocity in a 257. Also I don't see any reason for deer hunting past 300. I would extend that a bit for antelope but most are under.

I go for accuracy not velocity. At 300 yards you wont see the difference of 150 or 200 fps MV on a 25 cal bullet.


Sounds like you're trying to make a 257 Magnum.

If you need to push that bullet farther, look at the 25-06 or something.
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Old March 24, 2012, 06:51 PM   #9
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You've never mentioned who's model 98 your using, if your talking about an action more than 100 years old it will have a thin skin that will be hard for the first few thousands but a soft core. I've built a couple of 1909 Argentine Mausers, my sons 280 Remington has been a stellar performer, my 338/06 has already developed a headspace problem with fewer than 200 rounds thru it.. Heat treating 100 years ago and the methods used?? William
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Old March 24, 2012, 08:34 PM   #10
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Sir: with all due respect, you are asking for far more than you will be able to produce. If you want big velocities, start with a design that already achieves it. The .25-06 and .257 Weatherby both do it without stressing the load tables, and deliver higher than your target velocities. The AI might get there but you're still pushing the load tables.

My $.02.
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Old March 24, 2012, 08:39 PM   #11
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I shoot a .25-06 and you know, I've never put it over the chronograph. I guess I really need to do that. I push a 117 grain bullet and it smacks whatever I aim it at.

What's really surprising is that the last thing I do when I work up a load is put it across the screens, and looking at my notes, I haven't done that yet.
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Old March 26, 2012, 01:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
William T. Watts
You've never mentioned who's model 98 your using, if your talking about an action more than 100 years old it will have a thin skin that will be hard for the first few thousands but a soft core. I've built a couple of 1909 Argentine Mausers, my sons 280 Remington has been a stellar performer, my 338/06 has already developed a headspace problem with fewer than 200 rounds thru it.. Heat treating 100 years ago and the methods used?? William
There is a common misconception that Mausers rely on heat treat for action strength.
The thin layer of heat treat is for wear resistance and corrosion resistance.

The 257 Roberts case head with large Boxer primer will yield at half the pressure the bolt and bolt abutments start to move. I have done both.
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Old March 26, 2012, 09:15 AM   #13
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"...The thin layer of heat treat is for wear resistance and corrosion resistance ..." "heat treat", does not always mean case hardening. Sometimes, (frequently, more often), it means through hardening (and drawing).
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Old March 26, 2012, 09:49 AM   #14
William T. Watts
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Mr Clark your partially correct, the outer skin is for wear resistance, once you go thru the skin the inner core is much softer than modern steel. The point I was trying to make I have two 1909 Argentine mausers one has been rebarrel to a 280REm the other 338/06, the 280Rem is fine the 338/06 isn't. The serial # Prefix for my 338/06 is A, which means my rifle was in the first lot delivered, I also believe there could have been a problem with the heat treatment. While I can't be positive I think my son's rifle Prefix was a B placing it in the second lot delivered. In therory all the 1909 Argentine rifles received the same heat treating etc etc, I read or heard some of these rifles failed there proof tests. Non the less the Mauser actions are superb but I don't think they should be hot rodded, I would recommend that the loading for the custom mauser not exceed the pressure levels of the original 257 Roberts pressure level. If GDCPony adheres to the original loading he's not going to get in any trouble. Type this in under search ( Argentine 1909 mauser) Looks like this was covered before.... William

Last edited by William T. Watts; March 27, 2012 at 09:21 PM.
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Old March 26, 2012, 11:38 AM   #15
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Before converting the old mauser actions to higher pressure cartridges, the should be checked for cracks (flux and x-ray). Then machine work done, and finally complete retemper of the action and bolt. This retempering is usually beyond most smiths equipment but there are places that the action can be sent.
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Old March 28, 2012, 10:25 AM   #16
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Before converting the old mauser actions to higher pressure cartridges, the should be checked for cracks (flux and x-ray). Then machine work done, and finally complete retemper of the action and bolt. This retempering is usually beyond most smiths equipment but there are places that the action can be sent.
I have, just for fun over the last 46 years, sporterized ~ 100 Mausers mostly built either at Oberndorf Germany 1903 -1906 or in Brno Czechoslovakia1924 - 1942.

I would be really angry if some sent them off for heat treat.

It astounds me that Keuhnausen could write a book as good as "Double Action Colt Revolvers" and also write a book as bad as "The Mauser M91 through M98 Bolt Actions. A Shop Manual"

http://www.amazon.com/Mauser-through.../dp/999396400X

The Mausers book is filled with misinformation about things like heat treating, lack of drawings for tooling described, is disorganized, and un edited.

There was a chief engineer Walsh who, as a hobby, collected and sporterized Mausers. He wrote a book:

http://www.amazon.com/Mauser-M98-M96.../dp/187935652X

Reading Walsh's only book, I interpret it as an attempt to fix the mess that Kuhnhausen left behind.

I have spent ~35 years of my life as an engineer designing things and communicating technical information. I see no excuse for the Keuhnausen book being published.
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Old April 1, 2012, 07:21 AM   #17
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Well, I have always heard that 98's were good for modern pressures. My smith gave it a clean bill for going beyond the weak loadings listed. I will trust that.

I aim to make the brass my limit. I am not going to push beyond the first sign of pressure. While this may not give me my 3200, I think it should prove sufficient.

I have some test loads loaded from 45 (the listed max) to 47.5gr in .1 gr increments. I will do a little testing once I have a bit of free time (putting in a garden this weekend). I will shoot them over my Chrony and see how far they go before I get any signs.
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Old April 2, 2012, 12:01 AM   #18
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I shot these in a surplus 98 Mauser.
No set back on the headspace.
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Old April 2, 2012, 05:57 PM   #19
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what caused that?
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Old April 3, 2012, 10:13 AM   #20
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hooligan1 what caused that?
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
Range report 9-12-2003
1938 turk with Addams&Bennnet 243 barrel blank
100 gr, 40 gr bulk 4895, 308 LC brass necked down to 243 first shot sticky, second shot pierced a
primer, third shot very stiff chambering, third shot case failure and
smoke in the face, bolt stuck, 20 sharp raps on the bench to open.
wrecked cleaning rod getting the case out. scope very loose. gave up


The inside of that barrel was rough as a cob.
It took 100 pounds of force at the bolt knob to close the bolt on those handloads.
That powder acts more like the H322 model in the Quickload library than IMR4895. 40 gr H322 100 gr 243 is predicted to be 82kpsi.
Maybe the first shot was 82kpsi but the last one looks morel like 110 kpsi.
Bullet pinch makes for pressure spikes.
Between 2003 and 2006 that picture was downloaded ~ 50,000 times.
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Old April 3, 2012, 11:17 AM   #21
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Clark you mean to tell us listeners, that it took 100 lbs of force to close that bolt on a live cartridge? And if so, someone needs head examined
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Old January 20, 2013, 08:10 PM   #22
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, this forum, nor the staff assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Ok, it took a long time to get out there and try them out, but I easily got my 3200fps without any sign of pressure issues. In fact, I only pushed the max listed by Hodgdon's data by .1gr. to get it out of my rifle.

I went ahead and fired the rest and was at 46.8 gr before I got my first sign. By then I had pushed well beyond my goal at any rate. Extraction was still good and no primer issues either. Just an increase in head expansion over previous loads.
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