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Old January 15, 2013, 10:25 AM   #26
Mike Irwin
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Yawn...

Wake me up when they bring it out with a 28" octagon barrel and full magazine.
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:48 AM   #27
bshepherd
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"Mark V is also made in Japan"

They were made in Japan for some years, 70's into the early 90's maybe.
Made in USA for many years now at few different locations. Maine for one by Saco.
I think they are back in SoCal now.
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Old January 16, 2013, 10:46 AM   #28
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Isn't it illegal in NY? Didn't they ban any CF rifle with a magazine over 7 rounds?

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Old January 17, 2013, 03:06 PM   #29
WIN1886
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So even though the Miroku / Winchester model 1873 will be made of modern steel it is a relatively weak designed action ! Most folks I know that own Uberti model 1873's are using them for CAS events and mainly shoot mild loads through them ! I'm curious to know if it will handle a steady diet of full power .357 magnum loads !
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Old January 17, 2013, 04:44 PM   #30
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I'm curious to know if it will handle a steady diet of full power .357 magnum loads !
As long as you don't use +p or "hot" loads it will be fine. Just like the Uberti rifles, these will be made to handle any SAAMI spec (off the shelf) ammo. I have used Winchester soft point hunting ammo in my "brass" frame Uberti henry for years and it shoots as good as it did when new.
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Old January 17, 2013, 04:54 PM   #31
Mike Irwin
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"As long as you don't use +p or "hot" loads it will be fine."

Uhm... .357 Magnum loads don't have +P rankings... They're magnums, which are, by definition, hot.




"Most folks I know that own Uberti model 1873's are using them for CAS events and mainly shoot mild loads through them"

I think the primary reason CAS shooters shoot mild loads is the quest for speed combined with accuracy, not because they're afraid of damaging their rifles.

The 1873's toggle design isn't the strongest, that's well known, but I would think that one manufactured with modern steels would be a lot more durable and able to handle higher pressure cartridges than one made with the soft steels and cast iron of 130 years ago.
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Old January 17, 2013, 07:07 PM   #32
MJN77
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Uhm... .357 Magnum loads don't have +P rankings... They're magnums, which are, by definition, hot.
I was speaking in general terms, sport. Some Uberti rifles are chambered for .38 special. Also if you hand load, you do know you can load a .357 mag hot, don't you? As for strength, toggle link rifles will stand up to any standard ammo.

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Old January 17, 2013, 07:38 PM   #33
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So even though the Miroku / Winchester model 1873 will be made of modern steel it is a relatively weak designed action !
Toggle link actions are not notoriously strong, but they are not weak either. Read up on the tests Winchester did when they designed the 1876 rifle. They actually tried to blow one up. I can't remember the details, but the only way they finally succeeded in damaging the rifle was to lodge several bullets in the bore, then fire a full case of 3F or 4F behind them, and even then it just blew the side plates off. So with modern steel and pistol cartridges it should be good to go.
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Old January 17, 2013, 09:48 PM   #34
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Browning shotguns are made by Miroku. They make some of the finest and best selling shotguns in the country. I would have no problem buying a Winchester rifle in any form. It's a global economy.
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Old January 18, 2013, 07:29 AM   #35
Mike Irwin
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"I was speaking in general terms, sport. Some Uberti rifles are chambered for .38 special. Also if you hand load, you do know you can load a .357 mag hot, don't you? As for strength, toggle link rifles will stand up to any standard ammo."


That's odd, because not once did you mention, nor did anyone else for that matter, .38 Special in this thread before you dropped in "+P."

The wording of your original statement, especially in response to someone wondering if the rifle can handle a steady diet of .357 Magnum loads, is thus both perplexing and confusing.

And yes, you can load a hot .357 Magnum. But, unless you're a blithering idiot, you won't load a .357 Magnum past recommended book values, or past SAAMI recommendations.

That means that you've loaded a .357 Magnum. Not a .357 Magnum +P, of which there is no such thing.
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Old January 18, 2013, 07:36 AM   #36
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"Read up on the tests Winchester did when they designed the 1876 rifle. They actually tried to blow one up."

But that was before the Winchester toggle action met up with a new substance called nitro powder.

Starting around 1902, Winchester (and later other ammo makers) brought out a line of High Speed cartridges loaded with smokeless powder.

Cartridges so loaded included .32-20, .38-40, .44-40, .45-70, and perhaps a few others.

Obviously, these rounds were intended for use only in Winchester Model 1886 and 1892 rifles, which had MUCH stronger actions.

The ammo boxes had big, red warnings on them, too, saying not to use the ammo in 1873/1876 rifles or any handguns.

But, many people back then, being afflicted with the same strain of dubmassitis that is so rampant today, used the ammo, and destroyed their guns.

The big issue with 1873s was that the side plates were blown off, but I have heard from some that often the linkage was broken as well.
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Old January 19, 2013, 01:42 AM   #37
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Looked at the new 73 at SHOT.
Well made, nicely put together.
The bolt does have some sort of firing pin block modification in it, without having time & tools to break it down I couldn't see exactly what did what, but it appears to work off the trigger. There's also the usual trigger block released by closing the lever.

I was absolutely astounded to find it has a traditional half-cock hammer notch. NO REBOUNDING HAMMER!!!!!

All in all, if they come out with a carbine version (can't tolerate the crescent buttplate) in .45 Colt I think I'll probably have to get one.

It appears to be the least obnoxiously-monkeyed-with of the Winchester/Miroku leverguns. No tang or crossbolt safety, no rebounding hammer, and no angle eject.
And I do have a fondness for the 73....
I was pleasantly surprised, overall.
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Old January 19, 2013, 07:46 PM   #38
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I often thought that Winchester missed the boat when Uberti started making their replicas.
If Winchester had made an exclusive deal, they could have sold the range of original type Winchester's AND have been able to offer One of 1000 and One of 100 models on a semi-custom basis.

Both Browning and Winchester have had Winchester type lever rifles made in Japan and the quality was very high.
I was inside several of the Browning B-92 .44 Mag and .357 Mag replicas of the Winchester 1892 and the quality was certainly there.
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Old January 19, 2013, 09:59 PM   #39
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The picture I saw of the firing pin looks like they way they did the firing pins on the Browning 1886s. It amounts to a two piece firing pin/sleeve arrangement that looks like its supposed to be less prone to dropping and firing, the center part has to move some before the outer sleeve moves and allows the center part to go all the way forward. It seems more complicated than neccesary, but seems to work fine in the Browning 86's I have.

I had heard it has a standard half cock hammer and no other widgets like a cros bolt or tang safety.

Uberti has been making 357 cal 73's since the mid 70's that I know of. I suppose you could wear one out, but I'd be willing to take the chance. A 357 carbine in a 73 would be a cool and useful gun, though the short rifke is the same size, if a touch heavier. A 44-40 may be more useful in the field for larger critters, but the 357 would be more practical in finding ammo if need be, and matching more modern sixguns that more folks have. A 45 Colt carbine could be good also.

The bolt thrust of the 357 round is higher than the 44-40, but not as much as first appears from chamber pressure alone. The smaller base makes less bolt thrust for a given unit of chamber pressure.

This was posted by COSteve on the leverguns forum.

Win 1873 Bolt Thrust Calculator - Case radius ² x pi x max pres = Bolt Thrust (BT)

Original Winchester 1873 calibers
Caliber.....Case Dia.....Max Pres.....BT (lbs)
.22lr..........0.225.......24,000.........954.3
.32-20.......0.354.......16,000.......1,574.8
.38-40.......0.465.......14,100.......2,394.5
.44-40.......0.471.......13,500.......2,352.2

Compare those to more modern cartridges
Caliber.....Case Dia.....Max Pres.....BT (lbs)
.38 Spl........0.379.......17,000.......1,917.9
.38 Spl+P.....0.379.......18,500.......2,087.1
.357 Mag.....0.379.......35,000.......3,948.5
.44 Spl........0.457.......15,500.......2,542.5
.44 Mag.......0.457.......36,000.......5,905.1
.45 Colt.......0.480.......14,000.......2,533.4
.45 Colt+P....0.480.......23,000.......4,162.0
.45 Colt+P+...0.480.......25,000.......4,523.9

A point worth mentioning when dicussing the toggle link actions and relative strength, many seem to think the bolt would come back in your face if overloaded. I've never heard of it happening with any lever gun that was overloaded or worn out, a 73 in particular. The bolt itself wont make it thru the reciever, its installed through the top of the reciever, only the firing pin extension comes through the back of the frame in a 73. If you managed to grossly overload one to the point the action couldnt handle it, the bolt would stop at its open position when its shoulder hit the rear of the action window, the links and pins may be toast, and the sideplates come off, but the bolt isnt coming back any farther than that. The barrel is the usual weak point in lever actions, with some dramatic action disassembly occasions, but the bolt still doesn't come back in anyones face. What generally happens if overloaded in use (not a case full of bullseye, but just more than the action will stand over time), is the actions tend to stretch and become non-functional. Some Marlins bulge the sidewalls out where the bolt rides in it when overloaded, with the same result, the action becomes non-functional.
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Last edited by Malamute; January 19, 2013 at 10:16 PM.
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