.22LR vs .25ACP - Page 2

Glock19Fan · January 16, 2013, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Many comparisons between .22 & .25 use "similar" length barrels, but a 2" .25 and a 3" .22 are not really similar. The 3" bbl is 1/3 longer than the 2". The shorter the barrel, the more difference even a little length makes in velocity.
The difference in a 16" barrel and an 18" barrel may not be much, but when you get down to 2 inches, even 1/4 inch makes quite a bit of difference

In this test the advantage was to the underdog, .25ACP. The difference in barrel length was only 1/4 inch, which IMO is close enough for this test.

Quote:

Bigger hole in wood doesn't automatically mean bigger hole in flesh, organs and muscle. And it definitely doesn't mean a better hole

But when you consider these projectiles are moving at almost the exact same velocity, I believe the larger of the two will have the advantage. Either way, I do believe it will make a larger hole through bone.

And thanks Andy!

Bill DeShivs · January 16, 2013, 09:32 PM

Glock 19-
I wasn't disparaging your comparison. It's one of the better ones.

Glock19Fan · January 16, 2013, 09:45 PM

I just wasnt sure if you were refering to my test or another when mentioning the 3" .22LR?

m_liebst · January 16, 2013, 11:53 PM

Did the .25 acp really out perform the .22lr.?..
Seems like penetration levels from both were very similar.
Also seems like the .22lr projectiles look more deformed to the extent that the rounds probably tumbled a bit.

This deformation and tumbling suggests to me that the .22lr would've done more tissue damage, where as the .25 acp had almost zip deformation.

Just my opinion.

I think the soft lead of the .22lr promotes more chances of fragmentation with bone/ and tumbling and deformation in tissue.

Glock19Fan · January 17, 2013, 01:49 AM

Judging by the holes in the water jugs, both rounds appeared to tumble. While the .22LR bullets did deform, it wasnt enough to make a significant difference. The more rounded shape of the .25ACP certainly punched a larger initial hole in the wood and I would assume that the larger bullet would also cuase more damage throughout the penetration under the (safe) assumption that both rounds were traveling at approx the same velocity during penetration of the water jugs.

But the point of the test was to measure penetration, not damage. However, it seems that the .25ACP outperformed the .22LR in every way.

ZVP · January 17, 2013, 03:15 AM

often carry a Bereta Model 21 in .22LR it functions perfectlly with WW solids and clocks in at 900 fps with a 40 gr slug.
If I did the math right that's only 58.8 fp of energy but with 7 rounds a nice face spray or chest spray should deter any oppoonent long enough for me to get away safe...
Yea I have a .38 Chief to carry but sometimes it's even too large to be discreetlly carried. Granted it's probablly the premier pocket gun!
To me the best gun is one that you have with you so the little Model 21 someties fits ythis catagory and being a .22 pratice ammo is cheap!
JMHO
ZVP

m_liebst · January 17, 2013, 11:32 AM

Doesn't seem too be much difference in penetration level. Nothing anyway that really puts one far ahead of the other.

They both still have similar penetration levels, and in my opinion- the soft lead .22lr bullets have more chances of tumbling/ deformation and fragmentation when shot in the human body.

To me thats more lethal than the thick copper jacket of the .25 acp that might make a slightly bigger hole- but more likely a straight hole/ and certainly won't deform or fragment.

There are many bones in the body that will stop/ deflect both .25acp and .22lr bullets at the 60 foot pound levels....However, if so- the .22lr will likely fragment or shatter upon impact with a dense bone, sending pieces in other directions. Wood isn't an accurate comparison to dense bone.

Think about how much more critical it would be for a surgeon to have to find where the bullet actually is in relation to angle of impact/ or if there are several pieces of the main projectile that have broken off and gone in other directions.

I've shot the .25acp- ...you literally have to be shooting at a boulder or steel plate to cause any deformation. This being solid point.

hemiram · January 18, 2013, 06:20 AM

I would choose the .25 just for the extra reliability. I've owned a lot of .22 BUGs and they weren't anywhere near as reliable as my Beretta 950 Jetfire, the one I finally kept.

dayman · January 18, 2013, 07:15 AM

great test, and very surprising results. I was always under the impression that the major advantage .22LR had over .25acp (aside from availability/price)was the penetration. But you're seeing .25acp get marginally better penetration than the .22 even out of a shorter barrel.
I'm not sure what this information will do for me personally as I already have my tiny gun niche filled by a .380, but cool none the less.
There's definitely some distortion in pic#2 - best not let your lady friends know you have a camera that makes things look skinny or you'll never see it again.

As far as micro .22's that feed well, I had a Beretta 950 that never had an issue. It was .22short rather than .22lr, but the cartridges were definitely rimed. And my buddy has a Beretta tomcat that he feels is very reliable - I don't know that it's never misfired, but he felt good enough about it to give it to his wife.

darkgael · January 18, 2013, 07:55 AM

Quote:

often carry a Bereta Model 21 in .22LR it functions perfectlly with WW solids and clocks in at 900 fps with a 40 gr slug.
If I did the math right that's only 58.8 fp of energy but with 7 rounds a nice face spray or chest spray should deter any oppoonent long enough for me to get away safe...

I used the Energy program over at Handloads.com. That 40 grains at 900 fps produces 71 ft.lbs ME. I am surprised at that velocity.
I had a model 21 and gave it away.....could not get it to shoot reliably and I tried hard.
Good for you.

Quote:

As far as micro .22's that feed well, I had a Beretta 950 that never had an issue. It was .22short rather than .22lr, but the cartridges were definitely rimed. And my buddy has a Beretta tomcat that he feels is very reliable - I don't know that it's never misfired, but he felt good enough about it to give it to his wife.

The Tomcat is a .32acp. The cartridge is "semi-rimmed".
Pete

dayman · January 18, 2013, 02:46 PM

oops... bobcat, not tomcat
At least I got the cat part right.

PT-92 · January 18, 2013, 03:34 PM

I love these types of tests as well as the so-called "scientific" ones. And the findings are about what I expected. I agree with the OP in that if given the choice I would go with Sir JMB's little gem

. That said, I have a Beretta 21A in .22lr because I can afford to shoot it (.25acp ammo is ridiculously expensive :rolleyes

). I carry the 21A solely as BUG (9mm primary) but I have nice little mouse-gun collection

including a .25acp which a family member currently possesses (lend them at your own peril

).

Not to knock the .25acp but it seems as the the .22lr is the choice of "hits" like those conducted at times by Mossad.

January 16, 2013, 09:32 PM	#27
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 6,455	Glock 19- I wasn't disparaging your comparison. It's one of the better ones. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

January 16, 2013, 11:53 PM	#29
m_liebst Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 273	Did the .25 acp really out perform the .22lr.?.. Seems like penetration levels from both were very similar. Also seems like the .22lr projectiles look more deformed to the extent that the rounds probably tumbled a bit. This deformation and tumbling suggests to me that the .22lr would've done more tissue damage, where as the .25 acp had almost zip deformation. Just my opinion. I think the soft lead of the .22lr promotes more chances of fragmentation with bone/ and tumbling and deformation in tissue. Last edited by m_liebst; January 17, 2013 at 12:27 AM.

January 17, 2013, 11:32 AM	#32
m_liebst Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 273	Doesn't seem too be much difference in penetration level. Nothing anyway that really puts one far ahead of the other. They both still have similar penetration levels, and in my opinion- the soft lead .22lr bullets have more chances of tumbling/ deformation and fragmentation when shot in the human body. To me thats more lethal than the thick copper jacket of the .25 acp that might make a slightly bigger hole- but more likely a straight hole/ and certainly won't deform or fragment. There are many bones in the body that will stop/ deflect both .25acp and .22lr bullets at the 60 foot pound levels....However, if so- the .22lr will likely fragment or shatter upon impact with a dense bone, sending pieces in other directions. Wood isn't an accurate comparison to dense bone. Think about how much more critical it would be for a surgeon to have to find where the bullet actually is in relation to angle of impact/ or if there are several pieces of the main projectile that have broken off and gone in other directions. I've shot the .25acp- ...you literally have to be shooting at a boulder or steel plate to cause any deformation. This being solid point. Last edited by m_liebst; January 17, 2013 at 10:25 PM.

January 18, 2013, 07:15 AM	#34
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: the north woods Posts: 675	great test, and very surprising results. I was always under the impression that the major advantage .22LR had over .25acp (aside from availability/price)was the penetration. But you're seeing .25acp get marginally better penetration than the .22 even out of a shorter barrel. I'm not sure what this information will do for me personally as I already have my tiny gun niche filled by a .380, but cool none the less. There's definitely some distortion in pic#2 - best not let your lady friends know you have a camera that makes things look skinny or you'll never see it again. As far as micro .22's that feed well, I had a Beretta 950 that never had an issue. It was .22short rather than .22lr, but the cartridges were definitely rimed. And my buddy has a Beretta tomcat that he feels is very reliable - I don't know that it's never misfired, but he felt good enough about it to give it to his wife. __________________ Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. ~B. Franklin

January 18, 2013, 02:46 PM	#36
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: the north woods Posts: 675	oops... bobcat, not tomcat At least I got the cat part right. __________________ Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. ~B. Franklin

January 16, 2013, 09:45 PM	#28
Glock19Fan Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2005 Posts: 122	I just wasnt sure if you were refering to my test or another when mentioning the 3" .22LR?

January 17, 2013, 01:49 AM	#30
Glock19Fan Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2005 Posts: 122	Judging by the holes in the water jugs, both rounds appeared to tumble. While the .22LR bullets did deform, it wasnt enough to make a significant difference. The more rounded shape of the .25ACP certainly punched a larger initial hole in the wood and I would assume that the larger bullet would also cuase more damage throughout the penetration under the (safe) assumption that both rounds were traveling at approx the same velocity during penetration of the water jugs. But the point of the test was to measure penetration, not damage. However, it seems that the .25ACP outperformed the .22LR in every way.

January 17, 2013, 03:15 AM	#31
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 513	often carry a Bereta Model 21 in .22LR it functions perfectlly with WW solids and clocks in at 900 fps with a 40 gr slug. If I did the math right that's only 58.8 fp of energy but with 7 rounds a nice face spray or chest spray should deter any oppoonent long enough for me to get away safe... Yea I have a .38 Chief to carry but sometimes it's even too large to be discreetlly carried. Granted it's probablly the premier pocket gun! To me the best gun is one that you have with you so the little Model 21 someties fits ythis catagory and being a .22 pratice ammo is cheap! JMHO ZVP

January 18, 2013, 06:20 AM	#33
hemiram Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Location: Toledo, ohio Posts: 285	I would choose the .25 just for the extra reliability. I've owned a lot of .22 BUGs and they weren't anywhere near as reliable as my Beretta 950 Jetfire, the one I finally kept.

January 18, 2013, 03:34 PM	#37
PT-92 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2007 Location: "Undisclosed Bunker" Posts: 1,296	I love these types of tests as well as the so-called "scientific" ones. And the findings are about what I expected. I agree with the OP in that if given the choice I would go with Sir JMB's little gem . That said, I have a Beretta 21A in .22lr because I can afford to shoot it (.25acp ammo is ridiculously expensive :rolleyes). I carry the 21A solely as BUG (9mm primary) but I have nice little mouse-gun collection including a .25acp which a family member currently possesses (lend them at your own peril ). Not to knock the .25acp but it seems as the the .22lr is the choice of "hits" like those conducted at times by Mossad. __________________ NRA Life Member “A free people ought...to be armed..." ―George Washington